Tesla Powerwall alternatives ?

[rand129678]

12 minutes ago, rocky500 said:

I would make sure I bought from someone who I thought would be around in 10 years just in case I need to claim warranty.

 

Electric cars would be similar in battery life?

 

Yeh similar battery tech in the cars

 

BYD makes EV batteries , EVs and even battery storage for home

 

Definitely want to make sure they will be around in 10+ -  just like with buying an EV itself

 

For this reason I'm kind of waiting for Hyundai/Kia EVs to come mainstream and more affordable, rather than going for some of the current cheapest EVs

 

Tesla is safe I reckon 

Edited July 2, 2024 by rand129678

[PKay]

8 hours ago, rocky500 said:

I would make sure I bought from someone who I thought would be around in 10 years just in case I need to claim warranty.

 

Electric cars would be similar in battery life?

Have a look at the warranty terms. It will almost certainly scale back after 3 years. 

[rand129678]

10 hours ago, rocky500 said:

10 hours ago, rand129678 said:

 

I find I get a lot of days where the sun does not shine so well. So I don't think the battery would charge that day, so no battery power on that night? Hows your Winter where you are?

 

You can actually set the battery to top up during cheapest offpeak rate also

 

There are some using this method without any solar and saving a lot

 

And you can still get around this a bit by having more extra battery storage

 

i already have solar, so of course would use it 

Edited July 3, 2024 by rand129678

[playdough]

There are quite a few alternatives to a Powerwall, not only that there are alternatives to the current battery offerings of these "power walls"

One configuration is to operate an off grid Inverter Charger, which is backed by the mains, and programed to wait for a particular battery state of charge or low volts,,,no Regulatory metering required, just an installation.

 

10 years life of a battery, it's a little short in my honest opinion. Personally been running a lead acid 15Kva, 48v pack for more than 15 years and it's not only 100% recyclable, it's heading to 20 years of service without missing a beat at around 10Kwh per day through put, which I monitor on a BT Connection/device.

So, yea, might not be mainstream, but it's definitely reliable, sound environmentally and also economically very viable mine paid for itself at year 10 well and truly w/o subsidy ,,,,,,,and doesn't backfeed the grid. I'll sell the scrap battery at year 20 or more for good money and currently organising a pack at 770Ha or 40Kwh for the future and retro fit another 5Kw of solar, for retirement. So yea, 40 years 2 packs of lead acid, just better far and away better.

 

Edited July 3, 2024 by playdough

[rand129678]

1 hour ago, PKay said:

Have a look at the warranty terms. It will almost certainly scale back after 3 years. 

 

Tesla guarantees 70% at year 10 under warranty  for powerwall

 

There are 10 year old Tesla cars still holding over 80% charge after charging everynight

 

Edited July 3, 2024 by rand129678

[PKay]

3 minutes ago, rand129678 said:

 

Tesla guarantees 70% at year 10 under warranty 

 

what about the cheaper battery you are looking at?

[rand129678]

Just now, PKay said:

what about the cheaper battery you are looking at?

Yes we already discussed this above

 

Especially which company will still be around in 20 years

 

The Powerball is $14k installed for 13.5 kWh - not too bad

 

And as pointed out earlier, you can take it to next house if you move

 

And 13.5 kWh would even cover me for cloudier days but can top up during cheapest offrate prices 

[rand129678]

16 minutes ago, PKay said:

what about the cheaper battery you are looking at?

 

This is the one that @awayward showed above, $7500 installed for 10kWh

 

80% at 10 years guaranteed.... Better than Tesla. See below 

 

More importantly is will that company be around in 10 years.

 

But as mentioned there are 10 year old Tesla still holding 80% charge and the battery tech has improved significantly since then, way more cycles are guaranteed now

 

And the LFPs don't degrade near as much charged to 100% now

 

https://www.byte-watt.com/upload/product/1685412565598214.pdf

Edited July 3, 2024 by rand129678

[BugPowderDust]

There’s a lot of people making big assumptions on here about battery payback.

I put on two (yes two) Tesla power walls and 45 x 440w panels last year. I’m a big user of electricity (pool, solar heating pump, 550sqm house, bore pump, water pumps and central reverse cycle to start with) and wanted a seamless UPS to battery when power goes out.

Living in regional VIC, we have had periods of DAYS with no power and I wanted surety that if that happened, I could load shed and I’d be golden.

 

my payback is about 6.5 years on the modelling done with 3 years of meter and Powerpal data. I’m feeding back very little, but it’s enough to pay for my supply charge, so I’m often net zero cost. 
 

unless you do the heavy lifting on the analysis (or have a solar supplier who can adequately do it with you) you can’t plan / design a system to suit your needs. Because it doesn’t make sense for you though, it doesn’t necessarily mean it will not make sense for someone else.

 

I'm with Tesla for the batteries as their failover is very near instantaneous, the software is very flexible and extensible and there’s a bungload of these batteries out in the field to validate their shelf life. I can configure my batteries to pull from the street when I get free power during the day (ovo) on overcast days too.
 

there’s heaps of nasty Chinese battery stuff coming out but I’d be super wary. Just like those LG batteries that were setting fire to houses. Cheap isn’t the only dimension I cared about when building my system.

[rand129678]

the Tesla Powerball likely has BYD Chinese batteries inside, like their cars (BYD and CATL)

 

BYD offer affordable home batteries but when you add installation, it may come to similar price per kWh as the Powerball installed

 

https://www.solarshoponline.com.au/product/byd-battery-box-premium-lvs-4-0kwh-lvs4-0/

 

Would be interesting to get a quote , say for 3 of these modules for 12kWh

 

LG is South Korean and one of the biggest battery producers on earth (makes some batteries for Tesla, used to make more), here is the story:

 

https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/lg-undertakes-to-take-more-steps-to-locate-and-fix-dangerous-solar-batteries#:~:text=LG Energy Solution has provided,affecting around 18%2C000 affected batteries.

Edited July 3, 2024 by rand129678

[BugPowderDust]

If they weren't so expensive, I'd have preferred Red Flow batteries. https://redflow.com

 

Far less volatile in a bushfire prone area.

[rocky500]

58 minutes ago, BugPowderDust said:

 I can configure my batteries to pull from the street when I get free power during the day (ovo) on overcast days too.
 

 

This is I am not sure on with batteries.

I would of thought if you don't charge the battery with your free solar power, there is no point charging it off the grid.

Would night time mains be cheaper anyway, so just use the grid then, as you would actually pay more if charging the battery during the peak hours? I have not looked into this as I get charged the same rate all hours here in W.A.

The only advantage could be if your power is unreliable at night and want to have the battery power.

Edited July 3, 2024 by rocky500

[BugPowderDust]

With Ovo, I get free power for a few hours in the day.

 

If it's overcast and the cells aren't charging fast enough, I have automation set up in Tesla to charge from the street during that window.  So, pretty much no matter what happens, I have fully charged batteries each day at zero cost.

[BugPowderDust]

28 minutes ago, rand129678 said:

BYD offer affordable home batteries but when you add installation, it may come to similar price per kWh as the Powerball installed

I'd pay a delta to get the Tesla software overlay and the ability to automate it with something like NetZero.

[rand129678]

11 minutes ago, rocky500 said:

as you would actually pay more if charging the battery during the peak hours?

As I mentioner above, there are people without any solar using batteries 

 

They use software to top up the battery at whenever their cheapest off peak rates are

 

And use the battery during peak

 

Tesla software does this easily but so do the other popular batteries now

 

Some do this as a first step before adding solar and some have no plan to add solar

 

I already have solar myself so I'd make use of it

 

You can  do the combo of both, for example the days when there is not much sun, as I mentioned some posts above 

Edited July 3, 2024 by rand129678

[rocky500]

11 minutes ago, rand129678 said:

As I mentioner above, there are people without any solar using batteries 

 

They use software to top up the battery at whenever their cheapest off peak rates are

 

And use the battery during peak

 

Tesla software does this easily but so do the other popular batteries now

 

Some do this as a first step before adding solar and some have no plan to add solar

 

I already have solar myself so I'd make use of it

 

You can  do the combo of both, for example the days when there is not much sun, as I mentioned some posts above 

 

I can see now that helps in other states.

Here is my last bill. Constant 28c per kWh

 

 

[rand129678]

21 minutes ago, rocky500 said:

I can see now that helps in other states.

Here is my last bill. Constant 28c per kWh

There would be a cheaper rate in your state too - a different plan even with your current provider.

 

They are offer different plans. Have a look at which of their plans offers the lowest off-peak rate - that could be used to top up the battery

 

If you are with Synergy, look at their off peak, 8.4 cents

 

Edited July 3, 2024 by rand129678

[PKay]

For those people doing calculations don't forget the interest funding cost which will be at least the mortgage rate for those with mortgages and the after tax savings rate for those lucky to have deposits.

 

Assuming 6% mortgage after tax earnings cost is $450 per annum ($7.5k battery) and assuming $1 a day for supply charge the cost is approx $800. Obviously I am not a financial advisor but you should allow for the funding cost of the battery as well.  The $1 a day is a sunk cost but if you are looking at a total annual bill that bit won't be saved.

Edited July 3, 2024 by PKay

[rand129678]

Just now, PKay said:

For those people doing calculations don't forget the interest funding cost which will be at least the mortgage rate for those with mortgages and the after tax savings rate for those lucky to have deposits.

 

Assuming 6% mortgage after tax earnings cost is $450 per annum ($7.5k battery) and assuming $1 a day for supply charge the cost is approx $800. Obviously I am not a financial advisor but your should allow for the funding of the battery as well.

 

Well I wouldn't assume everyone is planning to buy this on a loan.

 

But yes if one is, clearly something to factor in

[PKay]

1 minute ago, rand129678 said:

 

Well I wouldn't assume everyone is planning to buy this on a loan.

 

But yes if one is, clearly something to factor in

Most people would add it to the mortgage being the cheapest cost of funding or use savings so there is a funding cost either way.

 

There is also an opportunity cost in that you could buy shares.

[rand129678]

1 minute ago, PKay said:

There is also an opportunity cost in that you could buy shares.

 

You can also lose everything with shares

 

Or lose everything with LG batteries ! 

 

Why can't we have it all

[rand129678]

I just got a quote, for $15k installed for 12kWh solar panels and 10kWh battery and hybrid inverter included. Includes DC coupled inverter

 

Sungrow batteries, 10 year warranty on everything that is installed

 

The reason he recommends changing my current solar is for more capacity during cloudy days.

 

He said with the rebates, I'm not paying too much for the 12kWh solar panels and I can sell existing for a couple hundred 

 

And you can do all the things spoken about, like choosing the time you want to use the grid to top up the battery, just like Tesla allows

 

 

[rand129678]

Having a look at warranty T's and C's for a few batteries

 

Some specify the warranty is only for the original installed location, meaning you're not covered if you take it with you.

 

Some make no mention of it, so maybe Ok if it gets moved , maybe not

 

A bit of a grey area

 

I guess if you stay put for 10 years the battery will have probably paid itself off, so if you move after that, its all "free" from then on, while out of warranty.

 

10 years from now though, prices and tech will likely be wildly different to today.

[Ars Paart]

We got a complete system (panels, inverter, batteries) about a year ago, total cost including installation was about $16k. Batteries are "Sofar", obviously some Chinese brand, 2x5KWh units.  They are modular (can add more units) but I think they require a Sofar inverter. 

 

I seem to recall the battery cost was about $6K total.  No issues so far. 

 

 

 

[Kaynin]

54 minutes ago, rand129678 said:

I just got a quote, for $15k installed for 12kWh solar panels and 10kWh battery and hybrid inverter included. Includes DC coupled inverter

 

Sungrow batteries, 10 year warranty on everything that is installed

 

The reason he recommends changing my current solar is for more capacity during cloudy days.

 

He said with the rebates, I'm not paying too much for the 12kWh solar panels and I can sell existing for a couple hundred 

 

And you can do all the things spoken about, like choosing the time you want to use the grid to top up the battery, just like Tesla allows

 

 

 

 

???  You've gone from $7,500 to $15,000.  Lol, you sound like me.

 

More capacity on cloudy days?  My solar produces more energy than what I use during winter anyway.  There isn't one month of the year where my 6.7kWh system produces less than what I use.  Are you sure that's an issue that you need to overcome by doubling your spending?