Xenolah Posted February 8, 2014 Posted February 8, 2014 I've had a 2.1 setup for many years now, which nowadays gets used mainly for movies. I've always liked the way this system sounds, and it hasn't changed much over the years. But recently I was thinking surround sound would be a fun addition to the movie experience. The only thing holding me back at this point is the center speaker. They've always sounded weird and unnatural to me on home setups. Center speakers are often smaller, and don't seem to blend well with the mains. It makes the dialog sound apart from everything else and it's distracting. I'm wondering, how do people feel about 4.1 setups? Are they a good alternative, or should I put the effort into good center integration? My setup looks like this: Rotel RSP-1066 7.1ch Pre TDL RTL3 Speakers DIY 100L CSS SDX15 Sealed Sub Europower EP1500 Power amp (mains) Europower EP2000 Power amp (sub)
Desap Posted February 8, 2014 Posted February 8, 2014 For what it's worth, I also don't like many centre speakers, and although I'm sure you can integrate something with your fronts that matches in sound quality, I'm not convinced they really add anything - but I could be wrong. I am currently using a 4.1 system and find the sound quite satisfying with dialogue etc still coming from "centre". I also find that rears are really only noticeable when there's some sort of sound effects going round the room, and are often not even putting out any specific sound. I therefore really question the need for big or expensive rears - but I'm also sure many would disagree with this. Each to his own I reckon. I suppose they add some sort of presence to a movie soundtrack, but a good pair of imaging front speakers probably can be satisfying on there own. Not much help I know but another opinion All the best
betty boop Posted February 8, 2014 Posted February 8, 2014 centre speakers are quite essential for ht setup when wanting to replicate the surround experience as delivered by surround mix in the material listening too. you can use phantom centres and mix downs etc. but they can be hit and miss, mess with the pans across the front and sound steering generally. I run both a 2.1 system and a 7.1 system, a centre is most definitely a necessity. especially if enjoying the program with not just your self even just move slightly and the centre vocals will be moved off centre. with regards the other comments about centres, its more a case of just getting one that matches appropriately with the rest of your speakers, particularly the front mains and side surrounds. the size/ scale of the centre does indeed matter quite a bit. ie theres not much putting in a pea sized compact centre if running some large output behemoth mains, the centre will be pretty much lost and drowned out, probably serve no purpose. instead in a ht setup it is meant to be the most important speaker with the subwoofer running close 2nd. so get the best centre can afford and suitably matched in with your system. postion your centre well, there is no point putting it "off centre" or down firing at your shins, place if possible in line with the tweeters of your mains or as close too. and pointing so firing at your ears and ear level if can. angle up if need be. there are various types of centre speakers. any speaker can act as a centre eg a bookshelf or standmount when used in the orientation they are designed to be used in ie standing up. people can use three standmounts or 3 floor standing speakers as front stage. for horizantal conventional centre speakers you'll notice some have a tweeter midrange vertically aligned. in my experience these are far superior than a more simple centre with tweeter with midrange or mid bass speakers either side. eg below. vs the vertically aligned tweeter/midrange with far superior coherence when going off centre in seating best thing can do is head out explore options try get a demo to experience. see you have tdl's, pmc's today would be closest cousins 4
DoggieHowser Posted February 8, 2014 Posted February 8, 2014 I've been using a pair of stereo speakers for TV duties and for the most part, I'd say you can do without centre speakers if you aren't being picky. The stereo speakers handle L to R pans and stereo effects well. But where it doesn't is locking the dialogue in the middle. That's where a good centre speaker comes in. 3
ArthurDent Posted February 8, 2014 Posted February 8, 2014 I'm wondering, how do people feel about 4.1 setups? Are they a good alternative, or should I put the effort into good center integration? I'm with Al on this one, probably go even further and say that the centre channel is the most important, so no 4.1 isn't a good alternative and yes you should put the effort into good centre integration. 5
Steam Posted February 8, 2014 Posted February 8, 2014 Mostly what Al said above. You can live without a centre channel and its fine but if you get your hands on a really good centre channel speaker you will find it actually becomes the most important speaker in the HT setup. Most of the dialog is delivered via the centre so if its a crap speaker you often cant follow the actors comments. Lots of " what did he say." moments. I think you actually notice this more if you have a good centre and then go to a friends place where the centre is missing or aimed at the ceiling etc. The same sometimes with the phantom setup especially if the dialog is being panned around. The critical point is that it should match the front left and right. I would be trying to find an RTL centre channel to match your left and right. Failing that a properly designed centre channel rather than just any old speaker. If $ are limited I would opt to go without a centre rather than just plonking some random junk speaker in the centre channel. 4
Desap Posted February 8, 2014 Posted February 8, 2014 Yeah it's all a matter of scale, and I'm just trying to avoid spending the big bucks to buy a centre speaker to match my beomoths Centres certainly can make dialogue easier to follow when matched with the fronts.
Xenolah Posted February 8, 2014 Author Posted February 8, 2014 I would be trying to find an RTL centre channel to match your left and right. Failing that a properly designed centre channel rather than just any old speaker. I think it'll be quite difficult to find a matching TDL center, but I agree it's worth trying. It'll probably be cheap too which is a plus Otherwise, I may consider swapping the mains and getting a matching set for the front. I know there are much better speakers out there than the old TDLs, but they always put a smile on my face so I try to keep them. Thanks for the responses thus far!
Kaynin Posted February 8, 2014 Posted February 8, 2014 Yeah, I had a 4.1 for a few years, then added a centre and the difference was far better. I was happy with the 4.1, but discoverd a new level when adding the extra channel.
betty boop Posted February 8, 2014 Posted February 8, 2014 I think it'll be quite difficult to find a matching TDL center, but I agree it's worth trying. It'll probably be cheap too which is a plus Otherwise, I may consider swapping the mains and getting a matching set for the front. I know there are much better speakers out there than the old TDLs, but they always put a smile on my face so I try to keep them. Thanks for the responses thus far! TDL had a nucleus centre, but they will be pretty hard to come by and in what condition given how old be now. it might be better to move your TDLs to another nice separate 2ch set and update all around to a 5.1 set. plenty of choices depending what your looking for.
Guest VladimirFreddie Posted February 8, 2014 Posted February 8, 2014 Mostly what Al said above. You can live without a centre channel and its fine but if you get your hands on a really good centre channel speaker you will find it actually becomes the most important speaker in the HT setup. Most of the dialog is delivered via the centre so if its a crap speaker you often cant follow the actors comments. Lots of " what did he say." moments. I think you actually notice this more if you have a good centre and then go to a friends place where the centre is missing or aimed at the ceiling etc. The same sometimes with the phantom setup especially if the dialog is being panned around. The critical point is that it should match the front left and right. I would be trying to find an RTL centre channel to match your left and right. Failing that a properly designed centre channel rather than just any old speaker. If $ are limited I would opt to go without a centre rather than just plonking some random junk speaker in the centre channel. I agree with all this. The only thing I would add is that after getting a centre I found one of the biggest impacts was nailing down of the sound field. Particularly front to back and diagonal sounds were in a realistic sound field. Before getting one I would have believed I could do without one too. (my mains speaker at the time - as are the ones now - were amazing in the imaging department) Case in point would be something like "House of Flying Daggers" which doesn't really make you notice surround speakers but the soundfield is amazingly more realistic with a matched centre. (and even more so with all speakers as similar as possible)
peacewise Posted February 8, 2014 Posted February 8, 2014 Not necessary but neither is icing on a cake. My centre matches the FLR and it sounds good. 1
Xenolah Posted February 8, 2014 Author Posted February 8, 2014 It seems that most responses are in favour of having the center channel (if done correctly). If I were to remove the TDLs, are there any recommendations for a particularly strong center + main combination? I'd be looking at about $1k on the used market.
peacewise Posted February 8, 2014 Posted February 8, 2014 Perhaps put up a Wanted to Buy in the classifieds for another TDL.
Xenolah Posted February 9, 2014 Author Posted February 9, 2014 Perhaps put up a Wanted to Buy in the classifieds for another TDL. Good thinking, I have a thread up here
Newman Posted February 9, 2014 Posted February 9, 2014 (edited) I also find that rears are really only noticeable when there's some sort of sound effects going round the room, and are often not even putting out any specific sound. I therefore really question the need for big or expensive rears - but I'm also sure many would disagree with this. Each to his own I reckon. I suppose they add some sort of presence to a movie soundtrack, but a good pair of imaging front speakers probably can be satisfying on there own. I know it seems like that, but the rears are doing a lot more than you are aware. A few weeks ago I was playing some 5.1 classical music for a friend, and when I turned off the 3 front speakers, he said "Wow. I thought there was almost nothing coming from the rear. That is actually very loud." This is due to the precedence effect. When the signal to the rears is a delayed and modified front signal, the precedence effect means you will think all the sound is coming from the front. However, the rears can be making a major contribution to spaciousness and apparent source width, which are proven important factors in the listener's perception of sound quality. Edited February 9, 2014 by Newman
Steam Posted February 9, 2014 Posted February 9, 2014 It seems that most responses are in favour of having the center channel (if done correctly). If I were to remove the TDLs, are there any recommendations for a particularly strong center + main combination? I'd be looking at about $1k on the used market. I don't have a direct suggestion but the speakers I would choose for HT and 2channel would ideally be different. For HT I think one of the most important things is dynamics. You want to jump when the gun goes off. Absolute tonal accuracy etc less important for dialog and sound effects. I also don't think you need monster floor standers for HT. A set of 4 stand mounts and matching centre + sub is fine. Of course if you also have to use the same for 2 channel then it starts to get more complicated. For what it's worth I am very happy with my focal electra's but they are out of the price range unless you get real lucky on the used market.
Paul Spencer Posted February 9, 2014 Posted February 9, 2014 The key factor is whether your system requires a centre speaker to effectively lock in the centre image in all seats. In a home cinema, it's likely there will be more listening out of the sweet spot and in many configurations, the image will collapse into the nearer speaker. The size and shape of the room, placement of speakers and seats are key factors here. If you are using speakers with the right dispersion and setup, you can actually maintain a solid phantom centre image in most systems. Sometimes this avoids an awkward setup where a TV, entertainment cab and a horizontal centre are fighting with each other. Quite often the centre channel is highly compromised. Better to have an effective phantom centre than a centre speaker done wrong. However, I would say for most people that want to get it right, if you can do it properly, it's a good idea to have a centre channel. There are many situations, however, in which it can be avoided, and in a non-dedicated room this is a very appealing option. My comments may appear strange to many who are not familiar with constant directivity designs at home. Such a speaker with the right amount of toe in performs an unusual trick of maintaining the phantom centre image well out to the sides. 4
Gee Emm Posted February 10, 2014 Posted February 10, 2014 I currently run a 3.2 system. It was previously a 2.2 system but it is not optimal by comparison. Having the centre channel is better than not in my application. So I am looking to build/upgrade the centre channel to optimise it. Currently, I can also increase/reduce the SPL of the centre channel (on the fly) relative to the other channels. This is handy when some movies run the centre channel too hot or too cold. I would recommend a separate centre channel, and would recommend you integrate/optimise it, to get your best return on it. You get the $ back, every time you use it. Graham
jgfisher Posted February 17, 2014 Posted February 17, 2014 I am having a 4.1 speaker setup - designed and built by Paul from Red Spade, so when I get these in operation, I will come back and confirm how good it is. I might move to a 4.2 setup, but integrating a centre speaker in my current room would be difficult.
Xenolah Posted June 20, 2014 Author Posted June 20, 2014 (edited) Quick update on this thread. The TDLs are gone, replaced by a set of 5.1 Jamo D6 speakers. The D6's stood out to me for a few reasons: 1) The left, right and centre speakers are completely identical (good integration) 2) Vertical mid & tweeter arrangement 3) High power handling & output I figured if anything would get me on board with a centre speaker it would be this. And indeed, they have! It did take some getting used to initially, but I now prefer this arrangement without doubt. I am impressed with the build quality of the Jamo's, they are heavier and larger than I was expecting. The cabinets are well made and don't reverberate when you knock on them. I was expecting I would have to sacrifice some music performance, but they are actually very good in stereo. The harshness of the TDL tweeter is gone, while maintaining detail. Imaging & soundstage is also better. The dialogue in movies is natural and easier to understand than before. I used to have trouble sometimes hearing quiet dialogue in movies but this is no longer a problem. I am yet to hook up the surrounds, as I don't have enough power amplifiers yet. Thanks to all that contributed to the discussion in this thread, I am a happy man. Edited June 26, 2014 by Xenolah 3
Zoo Tv Posted June 25, 2014 Posted June 25, 2014 (edited) I'm running a VAF 3.1 setup (DC-X35's, DC6cc centre and platform sub). In simpleton words to me, the DC-X35's cover such width - they spread the sound, vocal etc metres outside where they are placed and comfortably fill the void between them. I believe it is a poofteenth of the population who could double-blind test and reveal a centre in most circumstances when a great send of front main speakers are used...... that said, I purchased a DC series centre and it does a great job of putting the voices right under the tele - if you have a decent, modern processor (I'd reckon anything north of $500 would do an ok job - beyond that, its diminishing returns and people spending money for the sake of it). Edited June 25, 2014 by Zoo Tv
Newman Posted June 25, 2014 Posted June 25, 2014 Yeah but centres aren't meant to 'fill a void' that the stereo speakers can't fill. There is no 'gap' as such.
koloss Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 This might be a bit off topic but what are in wall LCR speakers supposed to do away with L and R speakers? or is it just a better option than getting 3 of the same for the front channels?
betty boop Posted September 24, 2014 Posted September 24, 2014 This might be a bit off topic but what are in wall LCR speakers supposed to do away with L and R speakers? or is it just a better option than getting 3 of the same for the front channels? LCR is just terminology of a kind of speaker that can work as either a Left, centre or right speaker. so yeah if you wish to wall mount speakers you buy 3 off LCRs and wall mount them.
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