Ras0406 Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 As said many times already, centre speakers do make a huge difference. Be aware though that no matter how good your centre speaker is, the mix of most movies/tv shows is pathetic in my experience in that the audio going through the centre speaker is either very low on volume or has too much lower mids and sounds 'muddy'. Quite often my wife and I struggle to make out dialogue when watching DVDs or Blu Rays for this reason (and yes I have spent a lot of time playing with configurations)! Having said that, you get the gems every now and then such as Les Mis, which has brilliantly mixed audio. Another good one is The Pacific/Band of Brothers discs.
Steam Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 On 29/10/2014 at 4:18 AM, Ras0406 said: As said many times already, centre speakers do make a huge difference. Be aware though that no matter how good your centre speaker is, the mix of most movies/tv shows is pathetic in my experience in that the audio going through the centre speaker is either very low on volume or has too much lower mids and sounds 'muddy'. Quite often my wife and I struggle to make out dialogue when watching DVDs or Blu Rays for this reason (and yes I have spent a lot of time playing with configurations)! Having said that, you get the gems every now and then such as Les Mis, which has brilliantly mixed audio. Another good one is The Pacific/Band of Brothers discs. I have not noted that either. Sounds to me that you have something still not right. Muddled dialogue is a sure indication IMO of something wrong. Could be the receiver settings rather than the speakers. Could also be room acoustic problems.
Ras0406 Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 I'll have another fiddle over the weekend. Some movies sound great, others less so, whereas I would expect crap results all round if something was wrong with the setup?
betty boop Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 On 29/10/2014 at 8:30 AM, Ras0406 said: I'll have another fiddle over the weekend. Some movies sound great, others less so, whereas I would expect crap results all round if something was wrong with the setup? maybe not in your setup as in system, it could be just in the location of speakers, settings and calibration. could also be thrown by the eq system if usitlising one. hard to comment without knowing a lot about how you have things maybe post some pics of your front stage, what speakers and amp do you have, how have you calibrated the speakers for levels and distances (delays) what eq / setup system are you using. 1
Newman Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 Maybe the ones that sound great are using FL and FR for dialog..... As an experiment, try turning off every speaker except C, what's it like? 1
gemini07 Posted October 29, 2014 Posted October 29, 2014 As others have said, there are many possibilities as to why the dialogue coming from your centre speaker seems muddled. Newman's suggestion would reveal a lot. Is the selected sound mode in your HT receiver set to 'auto'? If it is locked into a set mode, you might be restricting what information your disc is able to optimally reproduce. As a slight aside, a number of friends have commented to me they only use a 'cheap'/small effects speaker as these only need to reproduce a narrow range of sound. I also used to think this until the more recent updates to DTS-HD / Master Audio came out. Movie soundtracks and effects sounds now cover a much greater frequency range and having speakers that can reproduce this is important in capturing as much of the intended sound as possible. Not just wizz-bang effects, but also 5.1 music. I watched the Sarah Brightman concert, 'Live in Vienna' in both stereo and full 5.1, and with the latter you get a much greater appreciation of the supporting musicians, and also the audience involvement. Same with Roy Orbison's Black and White Night, and even The Rocky Horror Picture Show. 1
harmo_hammer Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 Howdy all! Has anyone replaced their centre with another tower speaker? Thinking of trying a 7.2 setup with tower speakers and an "accoustically transparent" projection screen. I'd be interested in how that sounds... I just can't help but think that there's something to be said about matching your speakers, not just to a product line, but having all identical speakers. Does anyone have any thoughts on the matter? I'd particularly like to hear from anyone with experiences they'd like to share. Anyway, I have found this thread quite enlightening, thanks! Hamish.
betty boop Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 On 13/01/2015 at 2:48 AM, harmo_hammer said: Howdy all! Has anyone replaced their centre with another tower speaker? Thinking of trying a 7.2 setup with tower speakers and an "accoustically transparent" projection screen. I'd be interested in how that sounds... I just can't help but think that there's something to be said about matching your speakers, not just to a product line, but having all identical speakers. Does anyone have any thoughts on the matter? I'd particularly like to hear from anyone with experiences they'd like to share. Anyway, I have found this thread quite enlightening, thanks! Hamish. Hamish a few do yes, however don't be fooled that just because you have 3 matching speakers you'll have 3 identically sounding speakers. Because sound you get will be relative to each speakers position and the room. There's a good chance your left and right speakers don't sound or measure exactly the same as it is Also with a floor stander quite likely will push your screen up, which in itself can be a problem dislocating sound from picture to at worse give you a crook neck if looking up. I found conventional centres can work really well and most makers go into a lot of trouble to voice the same as their other speakers in their range. And don't forget if using likes of audyssey particularly pro version it goes long way for all your speakers cohesively working together and blending in seamlessly with the sound image. Nothing stopping you still though going the floorstander centre it's particularly popular in large acoustic transparent screen setups as used in comercial theatres
Batty Posted January 13, 2015 Posted January 13, 2015 I spent a short time dabbling with 5.1, I bought rears and centre from the same manufacturer as my stereo pair, I found this was the best way of getting the same overall tonal balance which I think is important. The centre when set up correctly integrates the panning and dialogue much better than phantom setups in my opinion. I went back to 2.0 because the receiver was not as good as my stereo amp for music. 1
Steam Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 I remember a few years back reading stereophile guide to home theatre reading a great set of articles by...???..(can't remember..) and he was adamant that havering all identical speakers was by far the best way to go. Although I think he was also talking about HT speakers with controlled dispersion etc. So yes it can be done but most people don't have the room space and cash etc to do it. Most of us have to compromise.
Batty Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 My speaker setup was Castle Howards as fronts, Castle Richmonds for rears, Castle Keep centre and a Krix Seismix 3 sub.
rocky500 Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 (edited) So far I have found that not having the same speakers all around is not that important to my enjoyment of the movies. The speakers never seem to play the same content and in real life sound from the front sounds very different from the same sound to the side. I have messed with the same center speaker as my mains then swapped out different centers and they all work really well. Just a matter of getting the levels correct. I have a few centers here now, a Focal, JBL and Usher and they all work well as a center when I mix and match them with my fronts. Just have to decide what I prefer. They are all great. Having a matching center might look better though. I had some B&W front speakers a while back and the matching B&W center was not a good experience compared to a focal center I ended up using. Edited January 14, 2015 by rocky500
betty boop Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 hi rocky what are your mains running these days ? yes have had a bit of experience mixing and matching between brands myself. e.g. when I looked for an upgrade from my richter centre from my ht setup from late 90s. a paradigm studio ref worked in really well especially matching in with my mission fronts. I still used richter side surrounds left over for a while. worked reasonably well. as long as sonically a reasonably close match can get away with it. and B&W and focal for instance I do think a closish match. close enough that many with full B&W 800 diamond series systems often run the focal electra beryllium side surrounds as B&W doesn't have anything of that nature in side surrounds (bi-pole/dipole) and it works pretty well in a couple of systems have heard in. sometimes the match can be a touch off though and noticeable and when I upgraded my mains to my focal utopias the paradigm studio ref centre for instance though and awesome one didn't quite gel. bit too on the lean side when came to midrange warmth and vocals vs say focal or B&W for that matter. fortunately focal had a great centre to match in. although these days run focal all around my rears are local subsonic and seem to still blend in well. audyssey I do think does wonders with this kind of thing
betty boop Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 On 13/01/2015 at 9:09 PM, Batty said: I spent a short time dabbling with 5.1, I bought rears and centre from the same manufacturer as my stereo pair, I found this was the best way of getting the same overall tonal balance which I think is important. The centre when set up correctly integrates the panning and dialogue much better than phantom setups in my opinion. I went back to 2.0 because the receiver was not as good as my stereo amp for music. yeah am with you, while can probably get away with imaginary speakers for centre for instance, I do think its much better to actually have a speaker there doing the job instead. works much better than phantom mode that tries to create a virtual centre. On 14/01/2015 at 1:13 AM, Lord Osmium said: I remember a few years back reading stereophile guide to home theatre reading a great set of articles by...???..(can't remember..) and he was adamant that havering all identical speakers was by far the best way to go. Although I think he was also talking about HT speakers with controlled dispersion etc. So yes it can be done but most people don't have the room space and cash etc to do it. Most of us have to compromise. probably kal rubinson. whom runs 802s all around for multichannel setup at the time. can see in the pic below where he was reviewing the 800 in his 802 front stage (802s to the side) http://www.htguide.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=18980&stc=1&d=1296829333 bit of overkill I would say personally and a lot of money invested. And B&W make some awesome centres that work in really well... but hey he is the editor of music in the round i.e. focussing on multichannel music so probably needs to run a reference setup with as little compromise as possible. his other setup was a paradigm studio ref setup and if see in this pic in the article below, while he I think still runs paradigm studio ref mains for front and centre, its a couple of stand mounts for surrounds http://realtraps.com/art_audyssey.htm so even he has to compromise at times…
Satanica Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 On 14/01/2015 at 2:29 AM, :) al said: works much better than phantom mode that tries to create a virtual centre. When you say "Phantom Mode" are you referring to a setting on your AV Processor? I assume you can just select 4.1, 2.1 or 2.0 for example without the need to have this "Phantom Mode" setting on?
Satanica Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 Haha ... you really don't like me do you al?
jgfisher Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 Hi I have now had my purpose built Redspade Audio 4.1 system for a few months. I find it creates a fantastic enveloping sound and don't miss the centre speaker. The only reason I decided to go without the centre speaker was the setup - no decent location to place it other than mounting above the TV. I just have to find the time to get the bass measurements to Paul and finalise the setup. If I ever change the TV setup (currently placed on a buffet because of my girls 2 & 4) I will have one built to match the current speakers. Cheers 2
hochopeper Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 On 14/01/2015 at 5:52 AM, jgfisher said: I have now had my purpose built Redspade Audio 4.1 system for a few months. I find it creates a fantastic enveloping sound and don't miss the centre speaker. The only reason I decided to go without the centre speaker was the setup - no decent location to place it other than mounting above the TV. I've got speakers from Red Spade Audio also (Cinem8, which speakers have you got @@jgfisher? ) ... though mine are 2.1. I will go to 4.1 before 5.1 and am not currently terribly missing the centre ... one day I will probably add a centre ... more things to build and tweak first though.
jgfisher Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 Hi @@hochopeper - I gave Paul the dimensions of my room and he designed the AV8's around this sized room with matching AV8 Surrounds 1
rocky500 Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 On 14/01/2015 at 2:15 AM, :) al said: hi rocky what are your mains running these days ? yes have had a bit of experience mixing and matching between brands myself. e.g. when I looked for an upgrade from my richter centre from my ht setup from late 90s. a paradigm studio ref worked in really well especially matching in with my mission fronts. I still used richter side surrounds left over for a while. worked reasonably well. as long as sonically a reasonably close match can get away with it. and B&W and focal for instance I do think a closish match. close enough that many with full B&W 800 diamond series systems often run the focal electra beryllium side surrounds as B&W doesn't have anything of that nature in side surrounds (bi-pole/dipole) and it works pretty well in a couple of systems have heard in. sometimes the match can be a touch off though and noticeable and when I upgraded my mains to my focal utopias the paradigm studio ref centre for instance though and awesome one didn't quite gel. bit too on the lean side when came to midrange warmth and vocals vs say focal or B&W for that matter. fortunately focal had a great centre to match in. although these days run focal all around my rears are local subsonic and seem to still blend in well. audyssey I do think does wonders with this kind of thing Not sure yet on the mains. I find one test to find a good center I like is to play music in 2CH. Then switch to a Surround mode that uses the center and see if I do not lose anything especially in the vocals. Many center speakers can drop off in this regard, even the recommended matching ones. 1
betty boop Posted January 14, 2015 Posted January 14, 2015 On 14/01/2015 at 1:07 PM, rocky500 said: Not sure yet on the mains. I find one test to find a good center I like is to play music in 2CH. Then switch to a Surround mode that uses the center and see if I do not lose anything especially in the vocals. Many center speakers can drop off in this regard, even the recommended matching ones. good stuff rocky, yeah no point going for something that doesn't take a step forward. I remember a demo I did with some ALR jordans once. lovely mains but demoed with B&W 800 series centre. awesome combination. and was good reason they didn't use the ALR jordan centre there are some amazing centre speakers from B&W, Focal, tannoy, klipsch, paradigm and monitor audio too in their platinum range. one thing I found paramount in ability to do vocals well was a centre with either tweeter midrange concentric design or with vertically alined tweeter mid range arrangement. the late colin whatmough gave us a good explanation of why this is the case at a gtg some years ago and I posted an example of these from paradigm earlier in the thread. good design seems to go hand in hand with end result. some makers tend to have a centre I think for filling a spot in their range whereas others put quite a bit of effort in a good one. budgets often get in the way of doing things properly ! for anyone using stand mounts a great alternative to using a centre is a 3rd stand mount….get that vertically aligned tweeter/mid range and perfectly matching centre as your left and right speakers and works a treat in a sub sat setup. whatmough had a great pack available in the synergy range that did just that a while ago, same stand mounts all around and a decent sub to cover the low end. did both music and home theatre really well and sounded great when they demoed. this stuff doesn't have to be rocket science and doesn't have to cost the earth for people on a budget. 1
faxcomp Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 My home theatre and stereo are all intergrated into the same room. I run a pre-amp and power amp for the fronts. The AVR has pre-out to one of the inputs of the preamp I did try and run a seperate amp and high quality horn speakers for the centre channel, but could never get it to sound better than running a phantom centre channel using the mains. Yes, you do lose the locking of the voices in the centre, but then I find when using a phantom channel, everything blends better and if three people are on the screen talking, you can see there place in space as opposed to all voices coming from the same spot. This is a tough one as it boils down to whether you have matched speakers and whether you run an outboard amplifier.
peacewise Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 Is anyone using their TV as a centre speaker? I tried it for a bit but somehow, some why, the vocals become less audible. I was wondering if anyone does cc as tv successfully.
Sub Sonic Posted January 15, 2015 Posted January 15, 2015 @@Ras0406 On 29/10/2014 at 4:18 AM, Ras0406 said: As said many times already, centre speakers do make a huge difference. Be aware though that no matter how good your centre speaker is, the mix of most movies/tv shows is pathetic in my experience in that the audio going through the centre speaker is either very low on volume or has too much lower mids and sounds 'muddy'. Quite often my wife and I struggle to make out dialogue when watching DVDs or Blu Rays for this reason (and yes I have spent a lot of time playing with configurations)! Having said that, you get the gems every now and then such as Les Mis, which has brilliantly mixed audio. Another good one is The Pacific/Band of Brothers discs. Hi Ras, I'm a bit late to the party, but have you checked the polarity of your speakers, particularly the centre? It might be worth a look. Regards, SS
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