When does a cable fall into the realm of just expensive with no real noticeable benefit?

[gemini07]

I have tried numerous cables at a wide range of prices and have discovered the following:

 

• There are SQ differences between cables, especially speaker cables. Not as much with digital.
• Price is not universally indicative of either SQ or suitability. I have enjoyed superb sound using less expensive cables, and have also found many cables (especially speaker cables) that retailed for thousands of $, which were very average.
• The vast majority of cable 'producers' actually source their cable from the same small group of manufacturers, eg, Mogami, Canare, Belden etc, and use generic connectors from Neutrik or Switchcraft. Very few actually manufacture cables from the ground up or smelt their own metals.

Like most of the previous posters, I recommend starting at a lower price level and, if you're not happy, research what cables you might like and try to borrow some.

 

I recommend Mogami 2803 coaxial for speaker cable and 2549 for interconnects for starters. They won't break the bank and are both studio grade quality.

 

[David A]

8 hours ago, anth0110 said:

Would like to know the name of this manufacturer 

 

Sent pm.

[Grimmie]

Dob 'im in @anth0110 we all wanna know. No secret squirrel on SNA eh!

 

Edited September 26, 2024 by Grimmie

[anth0110]

Snitches get stitches lol  

[crisis]

I was a cable skeptic and in some ways still am. After a robust debate/argument on this very site many years back I took the advice of a well credentialed member who recommended using RG213U cable for speakers and set about building myself a pair. One reason was because I am tight and the other was that he made very sound scientific claims, explained his experience in testing expensive cables and explained what was of importance in cables. I was pleased with these and my system sounded excellent. Very detailed and transparent. All sorted.

This next part might get me banned however back around that time a member was building and selling cables to other members which were purported to use Van Damme cable as the base. Many members recommended them and I took the advice and purchased what were very reasonably priced rca and XLR interconnect cables. My system sounded excellent. Very detailed and transparent. All sorted.

I was absent from Stereonet for quite some time and while away decided to purchase a set of speaker jumper cables. Cables that one uses to replace the bi wire plates that many speakers are sold with to join the terminals when not using bi wiring. My first serious cable purchase as these 2 inch pieces of wire cost $200 . More than I paid for my speaker cables. I had read for quite a while that replacing the supplied jumpers with exotic cable would reap benefits. I could never see how a couple of inches would make any difference (as the vicar said to the call girl). Part of this was a late night Facebook ad impulse purchase and part was a petulant desire to say, there, I told you so, no difference. A rather nose despite my face attempt to prove a point.

Now I am aware and am sure that confirmation bias can affect such purchases and I believe in some cases this is the reason people hear differences. Me included. I also accept this actually doesn't matter to the consumer as long as they feel good.

In the case of the jumpers however I don't believe this happened because I was fully expecting them to make no difference. There was a difference. The bass sounded like it had been turned up a couple of notches. I never realized my system lacked bass however this change was obvious . At first I thought I hadn't heard the CD for a while and couldn't remember. So I tried CDs I am very familiar with that I use to test each time I make a change. There seemed to be more bass. I realized that the jumpers were connecting the treble posts, where my speaker cables connected to the bass posts. So it made sense. Except for the part that it was replacing perfectly conducting pieces of metal with pieces of $200 cable.

Oh and by now I was back on Stereonet and was informed the cable maker I had bought my interconnect cables from had been banished due to some allegedly questionable claims about the construction of his cables. I was told to bin mine as they were rubbish...

Armed with this new found confusion I noticed that some dealers were selling off Nordost cable at 25% discount due to new models(?) being released. Bang! dropped over a grand on speaker cables, to replace my home made cables I was previously happy with... This may be chicken feed for many but for me it was something I swore I would never do.

Once installed I was surprised by the added transparency and apparent increase in detail. By now I am willing to accept confirmation bias could be a significant part but i am starting not to care as I was happy.

I quickly replaced my nasty interconnects with an Australian manufactured product which was expensive, for me, (5-600 $) and well regarded. Again increases in transparency detail, reduced smearing of cymbals. , etc. Now out of control I decided to try the Nordost interconnect cables still on sale to try against my recently purchased Australian interconnects. I liked the Nordost better and sold the Aussie cables.

 

My system sounds significantly better now after a significant, for me, outlay of over $2000. Some will be laughing at this pittance and I cant argue because until I tasted the benefits of these cables I never really took them seriously.

Ive also addressed the sound treatment of my room which was of a similar benefit and much cheaper.

 

What have i learned?

You wont know what your are missing until you hear something that shows you..

You also wont be that bothered until you compare. The interconnects that I upgraded to were perfect and I would not have replaced them had I not heard the Nordost cables. The "nasty" cables I was told to throw away were also fine in isolation.

Do your room first. Its cheaper and provides a similar improvement.

Cables are a slippery slope and strangely addictive. Especially if you hear improvements each time you spend more.

I am happy to have my mind changed.

I am also not convinced that I haven't succumbed to confirmation bias.

I hope I don't spend any more money on cables.

 

Sorry for the novel.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2024 by crisis

[David A]

Nordost Odin 2 Gold 2.0m speaker cables. $134,995.00AUD

 

[crisis]

1 hour ago, David A said:

Nordost Odin 2 Gold 2.0m speaker cables. $134,995.00AUD

 

I would love to own a system worth half that much.

[bob_m_54]

10 hours ago, crisis said:

I would love to own a system worth half that much.

I once bought a house on land for less than half that much.. LOL

[Bass13]

13 hours ago, David A said:

Nordost Odin 2 Gold 2.0m speaker cables. $134,995.00AUD

 

At that price they should be able to play music without connecting them to anything...

[David A]

5 hours ago, Bass13 said:

 

At that price they should be able to play music without connecting them to anything...

I agree. That is a classic example of the huge markups on high end cables. By the time the Distributor and Dealer margins are added, you get insane prices like that. Even if I won a huge lottery and cost was no object, my dream speaker cables for example cost about 1/5th of those cables & would probaby out-perform them.

[David A]

6 hours ago, bob_m_54 said:

I once bought a house on land for less than half that much.. LOL

Yeah my parents bought a block of land 200m from the beach in Indended Head, Vic for $60k many years ago which is now worth nearly 3/4 mil.

[crisis]

15 hours ago, David A said:

I agree. That is a classic example of the huge markups on high end cables. By the time the Distributor and Dealer margins are added, you get insane prices like that. Even if I won a huge lottery and cost was no object, my dream speaker cables for example cost about 1/5th of those cables & would probaby out-perform them.

This is actually a good point. If the cable cost the retailer 50 large, and they add say 50% (without knowing hifi retailers margins) you can see where thousands of dollars go for pretty much no added value. Plus the 10% GST on to.

[gemini07]

1 hour ago, crisis said:

This is actually a good point. If the cable cost the retailer 50 large, and they add say 50% (without knowing hifi retailers margins) you can see where thousands of dollars go for pretty much no added value. Plus the 10% GST on to.

 

Try 100%. Then add GST.

 

Speaking to Greg Osborn about speakers a few years ago, he said the cost of components for most commercially sold speakers was less than 1/5th of the final retail price... So in the case of a speaker cable retailing commercially for eg $2K, the cost of the materials would be less than $400. Then add labor, supply, marketing, overheads, multiple taxes and profit lines.. This is well documented by SNA members who have worked in the retail industry.

 

My biggest query is why some of those components cost even 1/5th in the first place.

 

My advice re cables is to find a reputable manufacturer who sells off their loom, buy what you need and DIY, or get someone competent to do the terminations for you. Also, with speaker cables, the best connector is often NO connector - just the bare wire.

 

 

[SonicArt]

I have always talked about the budget allocation in cables, and while it probably looked cynical back in the 90's when I first started producing my Silver Line interconnects, I still believe that in most commercial cable products you are paying largely to cover their marketing campaigns. I never put anything much into marketing, paid for a few magazine ads overseas, got quite a few reviews in overseas mags, but I was always focused on hi performance at very sane $$.

 

I probably should have pushed the marketing side for all its worth, and was told by a few potential importers that the price was too low and their local customers wouldn't believe the cables were so good at the price! Hong Kong was a perfect example, they wanted the prices to be doubled, were adamant that locals wouldn't buy the product as they wouldn't believe it was that good for the price and they were being tricked!

 

I know this phenomena is found pretty much everywhere, moreso in Asia where face value of what you own is often the most important consideration.

[rockeater]

4 hours ago, gemini07 said:

Try 100%.

Try hundreds to thousands of percent.

You cannot make cables in the shed with your brother in law.

They have to be made in specialised factory and only few in the World actually make them for audio purposes.

The biggest expense is branding for low volume orders (those directional arrows and brand / model number printed on them).

Plugs can be made by a boutique maker but only very few bother. There are so many on offer from large volume makers and you can get exclusive designs (which does cost extra dollars).

3 hours ago, SonicArt said:

and was told by a few potential importers that the price was too low and their local customers wouldn't believe the cables were so good at the price!

This is normal marketing.

That is why some brand of cosmetics sell their face cream for $400 for 5 grams, for there is a market of wealthy women who wouldn't buy Woolworth brand of cream which is $10 for a kilo, even though blind tests by Choice magazine every few years prove it to be superior.

There really isn't that much you can do with cables. They are made from copper and 99.999% pure ones you can get from Jaycar for $5 a meter. Fancy insulation does not cost that much. Then it is a spacing between cores and the type of weave. 

That is it.

You could make them silver - and some brand do - but what you gain in conductivity, you lose in oxidation at terminals.

Some, like Kimber, have real life experience of providing live bands with stage  wiring (and minimising noise and interference) before going to cable manufacturing, but most do not.

[David A]

12 hours ago, gemini07 said:

 

Try 100%. Then add GST.

 

Speaking to Greg Osborn about speakers a few years ago, he said the cost of components for most commercially sold speakers was less than 1/5th of the final retail price... So in the case of a speaker cable retailing commercially for eg $2K, the cost of the materials would be less than $400. Then add labor, supply, marketing, overheads, multiple taxes and profit lines.. This is well documented by SNA members who have worked in the retail industry.

 

My biggest query is why some of those components cost even 1/5th in the first place.

 

My advice re cables is to find a reputable manufacturer who sells off their loom, buy what you need and DIY, or get someone competent to do the terminations for you. Also, with speaker cables, the best connector is often NO connector - just the bare wire.

 

 

As you might have guessed, my dream cables are sold direct to Australia as there is currently no Aussie Distributor. The reason those cables cost that much is firstly that they're the flagship model. And secondly, because they use proprietory solid ultra pure monocrystal silver ribbons and round conductors of different diameters. Even the connectors are manufactured in-house of the same ultra high purity silver. The second reason is the rising cost of silver. Yet they still cost 'only' 1/5th of the Odin 2 cables shipped to Oz.

Now back to reality, there are high end bargains to be found in audio cables. Though I agree with you that finding good cable sold by the meter, and having a competent tech or DIY'er terminate the cables with nice connectors is an equally valid approach...particularly given the wide range of excellent connectors to choose from.
 

Edited September 28, 2024 by David A

[Addicted to music]

I sticking to the stuff sold at Bunnings,  seem that I got 6.00mm 100mtrs for free….  Best implementation ever!  

[rantan]

1 minute ago, Addicted to music said:

I sticking to the stuff sold at Bunnings,  seem that I got 6.00mm 100mtrs for free….  Best implementation ever!  

Yeah.

One gets what one pays for

[Addicted to music]

3 hours ago, rantan said:

Yeah.

One gets what one pays for

I’m a working blue collar worker,  can’t afford $120k for a pair of 2m speaker cables.   But then again I’m not that stupid.  Money better spent elsewhere…..such as buying a EV and then go post how people should give up there ICE

[Eggmeister]

Reasonably civilized for a chit chat about audio cables

[MrBurns84]

12 hours ago, Eggmeister said:

Reasonably civilized for a chit chat about audio cables

 

Edited September 28, 2024 by MrBurns84

[rantan]

15 hours ago, Addicted to music said:

I’m a working blue collar worker,  can’t afford $120k for a pair of 2m speaker cables.   But then again I’m not that stupid.  Money better spent elsewhere…..such as buying a EV and then go post how people should give up there ICE

I never once advocated spending ludicrous amounts of money on snake oil cables and I am not exactly a corporate high flyer either, but one should have sufficient respect for their system that they should at least spend a few hundred$$ on a decent loom of cables.

 

As for the electric car evangelists my good demeanour dictates that I keep my opinion of them to my own counsel, so long as they reciprocate with me.

[adam0bmx0]

I'm running some off-cut 14AWG Bunnings cables with my Focal Sopra 2...... sound great to me.

However, i've read many times that higher end speakers (relatively speaking) are more revealing of things like changes in cables and interconnects etc, so with that in mind, once i've bedded them in a bit more, i'm going to swap out the Bunnings and replace with some Lenehan Audio Ribbon-tek cables I have to hand.

Will be interesting if i can hear any difference, I would say i'm on the sceptical side of the debate, but, the proof is in your own experience i believe, and not what you read.

[muon*]

Wow, that will be a nice upgrade.

[gemini07]

17 hours ago, adam0bmx0 said:

I'm running some off-cut 14AWG Bunnings cables with my Focal Sopra 2...... sound great to me.

However, i've read many times that higher end speakers (relatively speaking) are more revealing of things like changes in cables and interconnects etc, so with that in mind, once i've bedded them in a bit more, i'm going to swap out the Bunnings and replace with some Lenehan Audio Ribbon-tek cables I have to hand.

Will be interesting if i can hear any difference, I would say i'm on the sceptical side of the debate, but, the proof is in your own experience i believe, and not what you read.

 

It could also be quite interesting to have a couple of other people come over and do the same comparison...