Projector Tone mapping

[Vwman01]

Hi guys,

 

Finally bit the HDR bullet and bought myself a TW-9400 projector. My question is regarding tone mapping. The projector has an inbuilt HDR slider that can be adjusted to optimise HDR, but apparently it needs to be adjusted for every movie to suit the encoding.

 

im looking at a Panasonic 820 4K player. This has an inbuilt HDR optimiser which apparently optimises HDR for 500nits. Does this mean that movie brightness should be consistent when using this player, and that I should be able to keep the EPSON’s HDR slider on a constant setting? Thanks!

[xPLAYRZx]

Not familiar with the HDR options on the Epson range, but if you're using the Panasonic player for tone mapping, disable HDR optimisation on the projector. Tone mapping should only be done once, either at the source or on the display, not both.

Edited November 7, 2024 by xPLAYRZx

[betty boop]

On 1/10/2024 at 10:48 AM, Vwman01 said:

Finally bit the HDR bullet and bought myself a TW-9400 projector. My question is regarding tone mapping. The projector has an inbuilt HDR slider that can be adjusted to optimise HDR, but apparently it needs to be adjusted for every movie to suit the encoding.

yes unfortunately it doesnt really do any frame by frame analysis or anything so you can adjust the slider for one movie and wont be ideal for next and such... matter of trying to find some happy medium...and accept some compromise...

 

On 1/10/2024 at 10:48 AM, Vwman01 said:

im looking at a Panasonic 820 4K player. This has an inbuilt HDR optimiser which apparently optimises HDR for 500nits. Does this mean that movie brightness should be consistent when using this player, and that I should be able to keep the EPSON’s HDR slider on a constant setting? Thanks!

the panas can see the nits mastered at, so that helps, but unfortunately its either missing for some movies or not quite right... unfortunately also it will be case of get a happy medium and only be right for disc ? not other sources ?

 

so solution is either get a seperate processor like lumagen mega bucks... or buy a JVC NX or later .. perhaps one 2nd hand and it has pretty good dynamic tone mapping that will do scene by scene analysis... set and forget.

 

or just be happy with your lot and play with the slider for movies

Edited November 7, 2024 by betty boop

[RCADees]

Hi have this same set up; an Epson TW9400 and a Panasonic 820 player.

 

I have had the Epson professionally calibrated and it gives an incredible picture which I am very, very happy with.

The image quality is so good that a number of people have had trouble (including me) knowing if standard blu Ray or 4k HDR content is being played. This of course depends on the movie too. But I could not tell the difference between Dune 2 standard or Dune 2 4k.

 

The reality is that projectors (any projector) will struggle with HDR content because of the limitations in brightness.

But brightness is not everything.

 

4k HDR colour for instance seems to vary from movie to movie. 

Mission Impossible Rogue Nation is a good example in which their faces look orange. As you dial down the HDR setting, the entire picture becomes less orange and more yellow, the colours are not right still. And the entire picture is dim.

Heat in 4k is a similar story, but here the colours are more balanced. However, it is a very dim movie and as you increase the brightness with the HDR setting you loose contrast.

So it is a trade off from movie to movie unless the movie has been re-mastered like the latest James Cameron ones, Terminator 2, Titanic, they all look just perfect and the settings you do with the HDR will not do much at all in these cases. It really depends on this.

I wonder what others are seeing in 4k HDR because even if the brightness is right, if the colours are not right you loose me. 

 

Standard Blu Ray looks incredible, the colours are tremendous and the blacks excellent. The depth as well is something to look for.

Dune 2 in standard Blu Ray looks better than Dune 2 k4 HDR because the contrast is so much better, there is less light leaking around.

There are many people out there questioning the wisdom of 4k HDR because it does not necessarily look good, if for example colours are important to you. And as I said before, brightness is not everything.

This is why I have been increasing my movie collection with standard blu ray discs but the occasional 4k disc too. But to me standard blu ray can be amazing in a well calibrated machine.

Don't despair, either you can be bothered to change the setting movie to movie and go nuts or find a compromise and enjoy.

Your set up is something that can give you lots and lots of happiness for many years ot come and you won't be missing much. Me thinks.

[betty boop]

4 hours ago, RCADees said:

I have had the Epson professionally calibrated and it gives an incredible picture which I am very, very happy with.

The image quality is so good that a number of people have had trouble (including me) knowing if standard blu Ray or 4k HDR content is being played. This of course depends on the movie too. But I could not tell the difference between Dune 2 standard or Dune 2 4k.

 

good on you ! for getting pro calibrated.. though i should say typically the calibration for HD to SD ie blu-ray / dvd free to air etc is usually done at 15FL(50 nits) and 4k HDR done at 30FL (100 nits) so this should be quite visible... a difference ... as with wider colour gamut .. more punch to the picture with better dynamic range ? fair enough if not fully resolving 2k-4k but still i would be expecting you would be resolving with a larger projector screen above 2k ? even on my smaller screen i am at a distance to resolve over 2k ? 4k source is a higher MTF even if 2k so more visible data... so difference should be there ? 

 

4 hours ago, RCADees said:

The reality is that projectors (any projector) will struggle with HDR content because of the limitations in brightness.

But brightness is not everything.

you can manage the difference 15FL (non HDR) vs 30FL (HDR content) though.. its quite a jump up in light out put ? unless output challenged ie too big a screen and maxing out in output it should be discernible ?

 

4 hours ago, RCADees said:

4k HDR colour for instance seems to vary from movie to movie. 

Mission Impossible Rogue Nation is a good example in which their faces look orange. As you dial down the HDR setting, the entire picture becomes less orange and more yellow, the colours are not right still. And the entire picture is dim.

Heat in 4k is a similar story, but here the colours are more balanced. However, it is a very dim movie and as you increase the brightness with the HDR setting you loose contrast.

So it is a trade off from movie to movie unless the movie has been re-mastered like the latest James Cameron ones, Terminator 2, Titanic, they all look just perfect and the settings you do with the HDR will not do much at all in these cases. It really depends on this.

I wonder what others are seeing in 4k HDR because even if the brightness is right, if the colours are not right you loose me. 

 

this should not be the case.. unless a movie is colour cast by intent ? eg start of bee keeper with its honey look  

 

entire picture is dim and colours are not right sounds to me very much a case of tone mapping... i am a day one of 4k uhd and HDR early adopter so on day one in this country i was hooking up a samsung player to my then newly bought jvc x7000 (unboxed first in the world)..even then we had (given the global combined resources of fanbase) settings we needed to run to get an acceptable result. eg JVC were quite specific for screen size and i ended up with something i could work with mostly... it too the jvc nx7 though with its onboard frame by frame dynamic tone mapping to make it set for get though... i kid you not it is movie after movie spot on. i have small enough screen though to hit kind of output needed for 4k HDR though. so can end up with a pretty punchy result. mine is pro calibrated too from tony at clarity and he has done a superb job.. especially with skin tones and such which are always spot on ! 

 

4 hours ago, RCADees said:

There are many people out there questioning the wisdom of 4k HDR because it does not necessarily look good, if for example colours are important to you. And as I said before, brightness is not everything.

This is why I have been increasing my movie collection with standard blu ray discs but the occasional 4k disc too. But to me standard blu ray can be amazing in a well calibrated machine.

i am not one of these people i can assure.. and its not about brightness for me its dynamic range, colour and visible clarity and detail.  its not to say standard blu-ray cant be incredible but i do see benefit of 4k uhd. no question at all !

 

4 hours ago, RCADees said:

Don't despair, either you can be bothered to change the setting movie to movie and go nuts or find a compromise and enjoy.

Your set up is something that can give you lots and lots of happiness for many years ot come and you won't be missing much. Me thinks.

 

with the epson .. without dynamic frame by frame analysis and tone mapping .. you literally have to either find a compromise and live with it .. or do adjust film by film and also scene by scene. on epson a good example is with movie interstellar where  Matthew McConaughey in early scenes is sitting in the dark... you can adjust the slider for this scene to see it properly ..but guaranteed move to next normal scenes and will look off... so you adjust for normal other scenes and accept Matthew McConaughey is sitting in the dark and look at some shadows... Revenant is similar ...so yes case of just accepting give no frame by frame tone mapping you have to accept as is or adjust .. simple as that  

[RCADees]

20 hours ago, betty boop said:

good on you ! for getting pro calibrated.. though i should say typically the calibration for HD to SD ie blu-ray / dvd free to air etc is usually done at 15FL(50 nits) and 4k HDR done at 30FL (100 nits) so this should be quite visible... a difference ... as with wider colour gamut .. more punch to the picture with better dynamic range ?

 

Hi, Tony from Clarity calibrated my projector and yes, as you have mentioned he knows what he is doing. The process was totally worth it.

I am no expert so can't tell you exactly what he did, but I am happy to provide the results of his calibration. I guess this is why I paid a professional to do this for me.

The results overall are stunning, the depth of image, contrast, colours, and the realism of it all is pretty incredible.

Tony calibrated the 4k HDR setting by using the medium lamp setting, the Epson TW9400 can be a very bright projector so this is not a problem at all. 

 

There is definitely more detail when a 4k image is played, but this is if you are taking notes and comparing pretty much side by side. Is it worth the effort? I am not convinced.

 

To continue using the example of Dune 2. The differences are there with the 4k version, yes there is slightly more detail and yes colours have somehow a bit more punch as you say. However, the contrast suffers.

The differences are not day and night to me. And the punch in colours is not day and night, instead the extra brightness can be distracting. If anything (from my point of view) can make the image look a bit more artificial if you know what I mean. Less cinematic to put it another way.

It is a bit like looking at a Samsung TV Vs a Sony tv out of the box. One is too punchy and aggressive which gives it that unnatural touch. Yet the Sony is more balanced, more natural.

 

This does not happen with the remaster of Aliens, Terminator 2 or Titanic. When using the HDR button on the control for the Epson for these movies the entire image will get dimmer more or less depending on the setting level, but colours do not suffer at all. And yes, the 4k detail is there. The three of these movies do make justice to 4k HDR for sure.

 

On 08/11/2024 at 1:14 PM, betty boop said:

this should not be the case.. unless a movie is colour cast by intent ? eg start of bee keeper with its honey look  

 

entire picture is dim and colours are not right sounds to me very much a case of tone mapping...

I haven't seen the Bee Keeper, so can't comment, but I do have the standard blu ray for Rogue Nation and the 4k HDR version of it, and it is quite remarkable how they seem to be almost like two different movies colour wise. In particular the chasing scene in Morocco, as soon as they walk out and get into the BMW their faces are all orange, then they go down the steps next to a beautiful looking castle (?) and that building looks as well too orange.

By the way Tony also fiddled with the setting on the Panasonic 820 to match the Epson TW9400 so I am assuming the mapping was taken into account.

 

On 08/11/2024 at 1:14 PM, betty boop said:

i am not one of these people i can assure.. and its not about brightness for me its dynamic range, colour and visible clarity and detail.  its not to say standard blu-ray cant be incredible but i do see benefit of 4k uhd. no question at all !

 

Yes each to their own. My experience has certainly not been the same and I am not convinced that 4k HDR is the Holy Grail. As I mentioned above, there is something about it that makes the image (depending on the movie or mastering) look less cinematic. Less natural. And as I mentioned, the colours can really look very different.

 

But also, the James Cameron remasters of Terminator 2 or Titanic are absolutely exceptional, I wish all 4k releases were like that, but they are simply not. Looking forward to the 4k version of The Terminator coming out soon and I already ordered on 4k of course, it should look divine!

 

 

 

[betty boop]

57 minutes ago, RCADees said:

Rogue Nation and the 4k HDR version of it, and it is quite remarkable how they seem to be almost like two different movies colour wise. In particular the chasing scene in Morocco, as soon as they walk out and get into the BMW their faces are all orange, then they go down the steps next to a beautiful looking castle (?) and that building looks as well too orange.

By the way Tony also fiddled with the setting on the Panasonic 820 to match the Epson TW9400 so I am assuming the mapping was taken into account.

 

 

dont recall the faces in rogue nation specifically.. happy to check ... i should watch the whole MI series again  christmas holidays viewing perhaps in-between the cricket  

 

58 minutes ago, RCADees said:

Yes each to their own. My experience has certainly not been the same and I am not convinced that 4k HDR is the Holy Grail. As I mentioned above, there is something about it that makes the image (depending on the movie or mastering) look less cinematic. Less natural. And as I mentioned, the colours can really look very different.

 

id with some confidence say this would be tone mapping... Tony cant unfortunately replicate a dynamic result as is needed based on the mapping needed film to film even frame to frame as i described. its honestly why things like lumagen exist or dynamic tone mapping on the jvc projectors. so it can be set forget and consistent excellent results.. putting aside anything baked in...which is also possible ....either from artistic intent eg the beekeeper or other films where they could have even just messed up.. it does happen. 

[RCADees]

18 hours ago, betty boop said:

i should watch the whole MI series again  christmas holidays viewing perhaps in-between the cricket  

Love those ones. Specially from Ghost Protocol all the way to the latest one. They are so much fun those movies!

[Kaynin]

On 10/11/2024 at 10:53 AM, RCADees said:

Love those ones. Specially from Ghost Protocol all the way to the latest one. They are so much fun those movies!

 

Okay, never a fan of MI, but this post has me accessing all 7.  About to watch the first one for the first time tonight.  I do, love a good binge...  lol

[RCADees]

12 hours ago, Kaynin said:

Okay, never a fan of MI, but this post has me accessing all 7.  About to watch the first one for the first time tonight.  I do, love a good binge...  lol

Great! but be aware that only from Ghost Protocol (#4) onward, they found the correct formula of great action and fun.

MI movies are not all the same. Even the latest one has a different vibe, but still fun and amazing real stunts.

 

MI 1 is well, a bit dark at times but very good, just different.

MI 2 nobody can remember what it is about, just Ethan climbing some rocks in Sydney and something to do with motorcycles?.

MI 3 is like a Craig's Bond movie which starts with a horrendous torture scene, but very good stuff in it too, just serious business, not much fun, it is nothing you would expect.

 

Then from MI 4 onwards, as I said before they get the balance right. MI 5 Rogue Nation in particular I think is the best of them all.

Great to hear what you think after you get to watch them all. Cheers. Make sure you crank up the volume as they have really good sound mixing too. Enjoy!

[Kaynin]

28 minutes ago, RCADees said:

Great! but be aware that only from Ghost Protocol (#4) onward, they found the correct formula of great action and fun.

MI movies are not all the same. Even the latest one has a different vibe, but still fun and amazing real stunts.

 

MI 1 is well, a bit dark at times but very good, just different.

MI 2 nobody can remember what it is about, just Ethan climbing some rocks in Sydney and something to do with motorcycles?.

MI 3 is like a Craig's Bond movie which starts with a horrendous torture scene, but very good stuff in it too, just serious business, not much fun, it is nothing you would expect.

 

Then from MI 4 onwards, as I said before they get the balance right. MI 5 Rogue Nation in particular I think is the best of them all.

Great to hear what you think after you get to watch them all. Cheers. Make sure you crank up the volume as they have really good sound mixing too. Enjoy!

 

Interesting, good to know, I note 4 onwards it should pick up.  I watched the first last night.  Honestly, it was as I had previously expected, not my type of movie.  Hollywood garbage, that chopper in the tunnel - urgggh, spare me.  I did enjoy seeing how the movie aged though, the big old clunky PC's and such.  It was a typical espionage Hollywood movie though.

 

Having said that, I'm committed and will work through each one.  It's awesome that I can watch them back-back.  If 3 is like a Craig Bond movie then that's good.  I'm not a fan of any Bond films, but Daniel roped me in with his versions, and I've really enjoyed each one of his.  In my opinion, he's the best Bond (there's a can of worms).

 

Lol - those who have watched a movie in my room know how loud I crank it.  It's the only way... 

[RCADees]

5 minutes ago, Kaynin said:

 

Interesting, good to know, I note 4 onwards it should pick up.  I watched the first last night.  Honestly, it was as I had previously expected, not my type of movie.  Hollywood garbage, that chopper in the tunnel - urgggh, spare me.  I did enjoy seeing how the movie aged though, the big old clunky PC's and such.  It was a typical espionage Hollywood movie though.

 

Having said that, I'm committed and will work through each one.  It's awesome that I can watch them back-back.  If 3 is like a Craig Bond movie then that's good.  I'm not a fan of any Bond films, but Daniel roped me in with his versions, and I've really enjoyed each one of his.  In my opinion, he's the best Bond (there's a can of worms).

 

Lol - those who have watched a movie in my room know how loud I crank it.  It's the only way... 

 

Yes agree with MI 1, that helicopter business is ridiculous!

Then I think you will love MI 3, it is very, very good indeed just totally different from all the others.

Have fun!