Cord to power conditioner advice required

[Assisi]

22 hours ago, POV said:

 

What difference does it make?

You responded to part of the post and ignored the sentence above that is of paramount importance in any discussion of this or any similar topic.  See quote below.

 

On 08/10/2024 at 8:32 PM, Neo said:

So best to experiment yourself, learn and listen, enjoy.

Many things in audio are about trying for ones self.  I never make any audio decisions especially on matters where the experience is based just on the opinion of another without trying for myself. 

 

John

 

[Gryffles]

@Choco I use a Sablon Prince power cable from the wall to my filter and enjoy the positive results . 
Very important to let our ears be the judge 
 

[POV]

8 hours ago, Assisi said:

You responded to part of the post and ignored the sentence above that is of paramount importance in any discussion of this or any similar topic.  

 

Didn’t ignore anything John.  Simply asked ‘what difference’? A question that was not answered at all.

 

This has subsequently been added to by two people that have added $3000 (ish) power cables to their system and then allegedly noticed a difference, but the difference has not been described or explained in any way.

 

Ultimately people can do whatever they want with their cash but I reiterate the OP asked for advice, and what they’ve got is hand waving.

Edited October 9, 2024 by POV

[Assisi]

2 hours ago, POV said:

Didn’t ignore anything John.  Simply asked ‘what difference’? A question that was not answered at all.

 

This has subsequently been added to by two people that have added $3000 (ish) power cables to their system and then allegedly noticed a difference, but the difference has not been described or explained in any way.

Drew,

The best and probably the only valid useful advice on topics such as the benefits or otherwise power cables is to try for one’s self in one’s system.  Even in this thread there are posts that are for or against without any substantive quantification of the experience reasons.  Your position seems to be shielding is not required except in special circumstances, can be detrimental and is a waste of money. 

 

 

In one post you mention snake oil.  I predict that with the upcoming SNA Show there will be many shielded power cables in the respective setups.  From your perspective, much snake oil.  Some shielded power cables because of their size could seem like rather large snakes.  In Chinese medicine snake oil is considered to have benefits such as anti-inflammatory outcomes plus treatment for  arthritis.  Not all bad.

 

As an aside I have a serious power conditioner that has 12 outlets.  At the moment there are 11 shielded power cables connected.  Many are quite expensive.   As well the power cable out from the wall is shielded.  The cable in the wall back to the switch board is shielded.  Benefit?  I think so.  But who knows? 

 

John

Edited October 9, 2024 by Assisi

[sir sanders zingmore]

To be very clear, there’s absolutely no obligation for someone to try something “for themselves” before they are allowed to have an opinion and express it. 
 

Similarly, there’s absolutely no obligation for someone to try something with “proper controls” before they are allowed to have an opinion and express it. 
 

There is however an absolute obligation to respond without abuse (and even with respect) to those who disagree with you 

[POV]

Thanks John, I'll respond to your post in good faith and then leave it there, as my objective here was simply to assist the OP, not engage in debates.

 

4 hours ago, Assisi said:

The best and probably the only valid useful advice on topics such as the benefits or otherwise power cables is to try for one’s self in one’s system. 

 

Whilst I understand this sentiment, and I understand why posts appealing to this concept are popular, I simply do not agree that this is good advice in actual practice.  In hi-fi as in all parts of life there are things that make sense to try for ones self and things that do not make sense to try for ones self.  Power supplies, power distribution, power cables, effect of electromagnetic interference, filtering, regeneration, etc are all extremely well studied, and well understood areas.  Whilst it may seem like a mystery that needs experimenting it really isn't and there's nothing special about high fidelity audio systems that departs from conventionally understood electrical and electronics theory.

 

Attempting an analogy, there is a naturopath in Adelaide at the moment running around telling people that cancer is a product of poor gut health and that it can be cured by improving gut health.   Should cancer patients listen to this person and try it out for themselves or should they locate an encologist that they can trust and that is able to evidence their professional credentials and contemporaneous professional development in this field?   Whilst obviously the potential consequences are different, I do see things like power delivery to hi-fi systems as similar.  You could take a 'try and see' approach if you like or you could seek professional advice from a suitably qualified and experienced professional to assist you in dealing with whatever issues you are experiencing with your power (note I have no idea what problems you were having that you were seeking to resolve with your power conditioner and cables)

 

4 hours ago, Assisi said:

Benefit?  I think so.  But who knows? 

 

...And this is the real crux of the issue here.  You may well think that no-one knows or that the answer is unknowable, but to me it is all very, very well understood, easily fault found and tested and simple to resolve.  I've been designing electronic components vastly more sensitive to electrical supply variation and electromagnetic interference than any hi-fi components for nearly 30 years.  I employ nearly 50 full time engineers and have a research and development facility that is deployed entirely to move design of our components and equipment forward.  If the impact of power cables, filtration, conditioning, regeneration, and shielding were not understood, how on earth would we design anything?  How would we fault find and resolve issues in our installations for our clients?

 

I do understand that this is a hobby and I do understand that my views may not be widely accepted here, but my intention is not to disrespect or upset anyone. My aim is to encourage critical thinking before investing in (likely) unnecessary items. In my view, advising people to simply try things out for themselves is not prudent, particularly people that come seeking advice and saying that the subject matter is way over their head.

 

Take Care,

Drew

 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2024 by POV

[Choco]

Didn't mean to open up a hornet's nest here, but thanks everyone for the advice and opinions. It appears enough people have had a positive experience with cables for me to give it a crack, and as several people have suggested, let my ears be the judge.

[Assisi]

7 hours ago, POV said:

Whilst I understand this sentiment, and I understand why posts appealing to this concept are popular, I simply do not agree that this is good advice in actual practice

Drew,

I am in a fortunate position that I can try before I decide. I have an excellent relationship with my provider of product.  If I do not consider that something is not for my system, it can and doe go back.

 

 

Your very comprehensive last post covers many matters that could take pages to respond to.   From one perspective I can easily agree with most aspects of your last post.  Yet I have my own experience of the last several years. I as a consequence have an alternative or contradictory perspective.  I expect based on previous post exchanges between both us, you would be aware that we do not sing from the same hymn book on various matters.  The important aspect to me that whilst there is disagreement it is amicable.

 

 

Your responses to the topic based on your technical knowledge on matters with power cables is similar to or the same as that from posters with extensive networking and data centre knowledge and experience. The position of some posters is that there are no problems with the Ethernet signal.  It is intact and perfect unless there are significant transmissions issues is there is no need for quality audio network switches, cables and other treatments. I agree that the both the Ethernet and power gets through as they should.

 

 

I cannot from a technical perspective substantiate my experience with both power and or networking.  I consider that for me and my listening pleasure, my treatments of both power and networking especially the later to mitigate resonance, noise and or interference have delivered definite benefits.  

 

John  

[andyr]

On 08/10/2024 at 11:59 PM, POV said:

What difference does it make?

 

Given that the power conditioner is feeding several devices ... there will presumably be several amps passing through the power cord which feeds the power conditioner.

 

So a power cable having 2.5mm^2 wires will pass this current better than a cable having 1mm^2 wires.

 

And 4mm^2 wires will probably do an even better job (of passing the current)!

 

On 09/10/2024 at 8:14 PM, POV said:

As a general rule, for home installations shielding power cables is not required, nor in any way helpful.  

  

That is not my experience, Drew.  I have experienced that power cables running alongside even shielded interconnects can cause hash to be heard from the spkrs.  Adding shielding to these power cables ... eliminated this hash.

 

Unfortunately, sometimes it is inevitable that power cables will run close to interconnects.  

 

[Gryffles]

2 hours ago, Choco said:

Didn't mean to open up a hornet's nest here, but thanks everyone for the advice and opinions. It appears enough people have had a positive experience with cables for me to give it a crack, and as several people have suggested, let my ears be the judge.

Good on you and glad you got the advice you deemed useful.

What cables are you considering so far?

[The Rock Puppy]

I can't make any worthwhile comment regarding cables good or bad, but I think you should have a look at this if you decide to splash out:

 

 

[ray4410]

10 hours ago, andyr said:

 

Given that the power conditioner is feeding several devices ... there will presumably be several amps passing through the power cord which feeds the power conditioner.

 

So a power cable having 2.5mm^2 wires will pass this current better than a cable having 1mm^2 wires.

 

And 4mm^2 wires will probably do an even better job (of passing the current)!

 

  

That is not my experience, Drew.  I have experienced that power cables running alongside even shielded interconnects can cause hash to be heard from the spkrs.  Adding shielding to these power cables ... eliminated this hash.

 

Unfortunately, sometimes it is inevitable that power cables will run close to interconnects.  

 

all of my components are connected using shielded power cables they cross a several interconnects i can turn the volume right up (without any music playing)and hear no hum/hiss just pure silence so i am a believer in shielded power cables in my situation, also it sounds pretty darn good when i do turn the wick up 

Edited October 10, 2024 by ray4410

[Addicted to music]

11 hours ago, andyr said:

 

Given that the power conditioner is feeding several devices ... there will presumably be several amps passing through the power cord which feeds the power conditioner.

 

So a power cable having 2.5mm^2 wires will pass this current better than a cable having 1mm^2 wires.

 

And 4mm^2 wires will probably do an even better job (of passing the current)!

 

  

 

Im very sure that even with all gear connected including most pure class A amplifiers connected to the mains won't exceed 2400W which is a standard 10A 240V output, any 2.5mm^2 wires will suffice.  Whether you use 10, 15, 35A single phase has little effect on SQ.   The higher the capacity, the less likely your wire heats due to less resistance in the wire.  Thats govern by ohms law.  

11 hours ago, andyr said:

 

 

That is not my experience, Drew.  I have experienced that power cables running alongside even shielded interconnects can cause hash to be heard from the spkrs.  Adding shielding to these power cables ... eliminated this hash.

 

Unfortunately, sometimes it is inevitable that power cables will run close to interconnects.  

 

 

Had this experience just recently on a down light circuit,  had to replaced a 12V SMPS to that particular down light, problem solves noise gone.  if your equipment is picking up noise, locate the source and have it fixed or replaced.  Noise that excessive thats its picked up by a power cord requires your attention to remove it otherwise youll see or have other issues developed like possible electrical fire!

[POV]

11 hours ago, andyr said:

So a power cable having 2.5mm^2 wires will pass this current better than a cable having 1mm^2 wires.

 

And 4mm^2 wires will probably do an even better job (of passing the current)!

Truthfully I don’t know what you mean in this context by ‘better’ Andy.  But let’s take it as read that whatever cable is used is suitably rated for the peak current demand of the connected device.  Perhaps you are thinking that a lower diameter cable may be somehow ‘choking’ current flow but that’s not really how it works.  Remember that a components peak current demand is just that, peak which is typically only for very short transients and generally speaking the unit will be drawing much less than its peak current.  So assuming the cable used has a suitable geometry, then there can be no difference.

 

14 hours ago, andyr said:

That is not my experience, Drew.  I have experienced that power cables running alongside even shielded interconnects can cause hash to be heard from the spkrs.  Adding shielding to these power cables ... eliminated this hash.

 

Unfortunately, sometimes it is inevitable that power cables will run close to interconnects.  

Sure, but the answer to this in the first instance is to utilise good quality shielded interconnects and try to cross the power cable and interconnect at 90 degrees rather than allow to run in parallel.  But if that fails and there are remnant issues with EMI related noise (this would be extraordinarily rare) then it may make sense to install a shielded power cable in the setting.  By taking this approach you minimise the potential for adding problems via the shielding (particularly noise on the earth).

 

I would be curious what brand of interconnects you are using g where the shielding is not able to adequately deal with the relative level EMI of power cables in hifi systems.  

[Addicted to music]

The love hate relationship with ASR is understandable even on these pages.   There is nothing we don't know when comes to power transmission and delivery and also in the digital signal domain.  

To be expected for an electronics/electrical perspective that what ASR presents with measurements proves with sound data and scientific facts that regardless of quality of cables and even though the expensive thick audiophile cable measures better in resistance and also has better reduction in noise( this goes with lowering the resistive value),  it's in the range of audibility where it's "irrelevant" or what is described as 'non audible".    There are no differences in performance when both cables are plugged into a device and measured,  all to be expected!   So you basically have to decide whether to outlay more money or spend none to get the same level of performance.   

 

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/gr-research-b24-ac-cord-review.35685/

[Tim D]

My actual personal experience is I noticed a difference and thought it was an improvement.

 

Others here seem quite vocal in their criticism of power cords.  That’s fine by me too.

 

I didn’t think cable burn in was a thing either until I experienced it myself.

Edited October 14, 2024 by Tim D
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