Epoch Brain13 Roon Core

[MattyW]

I was wondering if anyone had tried this at all. I could find no reviews of it or anyone online who had bought one. It does look rather interesting. Sounds like it runs Roon in a Docker container which is an interesting way to access those extra CPU cores.

 

Roon Core - https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006230624126.html

Matching linear power supply - https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004671995028.html

 

I'm thinking about getting one as pricing is much the same as the new Titan and based on the same generation Intel NUC architecture. Both are passively cooled but the way this unit approaches things with some OCXO clocks for various things interests me. It may be no better at all, or it could be great. Anyway if it's not all complete BS I suspect it has the possibility to better the upcoming Nucleus Titan.... That and I can at least buy it NOW. 

 

Thoughts anyone?

Edited October 17, 2024 by MattyW

[Dystoria]

If I've done the calculations correctly the titan comes in at approx Aud $6000 (if that's any guide to the final Oz price) and the Brain13 +PSU is approx Aud$3500 (plus shipping for the PSU). 

 

The Brain13 blurb states it can be used as a "HQ embedded CORE". Do you think they mean HQPlayer?

 

I'd be interested in your thoughts if you do go down this track.

[MattyW]

Yes, I’m rather tempted to try this one. It interests me for some reason. I’ve been wondering for a while now whether my willingness to try unknown heat that I’ve a hunch about is my version of gambling…..

Edited October 18, 2024 by MattyW

[Dystoria]

If you pull the trigger let us known your thoughts. I was waiting for the specs / price for the upcoming M4 Mac mini but could be persuaded to remain in the pc world.

Edited October 18, 2024 by Dystoria
Typo

[MattyW]

This unit makes me think it supports docker containers. I wouldn’t mind running Plex on the same machine though really my NAS is fine for hosting both presently.  I think this may be better though. It would like next to the NAS and my NBN box.

[Dystoria]

I'm not familiar with docker containers but after a quick read I think I get the concept. I'm pretty sure container tech won't help me out, I have a dedicated NAS server (Plex) and a dedicated roon core which needs to migrate to a much better box to run more process / core intensive HQplayer DSD 512 filters.

[MattyW]

I figure the Brain13 might do the trick. I primarily want to see if it gives a more seamless experience with Roon and whether sound quality changes vs hosted of my NAS alongside Plex.

 

I’ve not really tried HQPlayer at this time. Not aware of its benefits.

Edited October 18, 2024 by MattyW

[Superfuzzbigmuff]

  On 18/10/2024 at 12:10 PM, Dystoria said:

If you pull the trigger let us known your thoughts. I was waiting for the specs / price for the upcoming M4 Mac mini but could be persuaded to remain in the pc world.

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Would be interested to hear if you go down the path of the Mac mini M4 when it comes out. I've been looking at the Studio M2Max (which is not much more expensive than a specced up Mac mini M2) to be able to run Roon and HQPlayer. I currently have a Roon Nucleus Plus, which has obvious limitations including not being able to run HQPlayer.

 

I'm a bit sus about going to the Titan - not only due to the cost, but I think there are better solutions out there such as the Brain, Silent Angel, Mac mini / Studio for example. It's a bit of mine field to navigate however.

[MattyW]

  On 23/10/2024 at 10:36 PM, Superfuzzbigmuff said:

 

Would be interested to hear if you go down the path of the Mac mini M4 when it comes out. I've been looking at the Studio M2Max (which is not much more expensive than a specced up Mac mini M2) to be able to run Roon and HQPlayer. I currently have a Roon Nucleus Plus, which has obvious limitations including not being able to run HQPlayer.

 

I'm a bit sus about going to the Titan - not only due to the cost, but I think there are better solutions out there such as the Brain, Silent Angel, Mac mini / Studio for example. It's a bit of mine field to navigate however.

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I do believe HQPlayer can be run in a docker container so in theory the Epoch Brain13 is suited for that use..... Likely the only way to use the extra cores of the Core i5 given that Roon itself is single threaded. I'm still of the belief that perhaps I can host Plex from the same box as well. 

 

I'm decided that I will get the Brain13 in the not too distant future so I'll post my thoughts here once I have it. I'm hoping it can be fully configured via a web interface rather than needing a screen hooked up to it. I guess time will tell.

Edited October 23, 2024 by MattyW

[Superfuzzbigmuff]

By all accounts a lot of computing power is needed to upsample via HQPlayer to DSD files (I currently don't have it so I have no idea). Would be interesting to find out how hard the Brain can drive HQPlayer. From what I've read, a Mac mini M2 pro maxes out at DSD256.

[Dystoria]

  On 23/10/2024 at 10:45 PM, Superfuzzbigmuff said:

By all accounts a lot of computing power is needed to upsample via HQPlayer to DSD file

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It sure does. M2 pro maxes out at DSD256 (not running the more computational intense filters).

 

I'll wait until I see the specs for the M4 before I commit. I'd be happy to upsample to DSD512 if the resource intensive filters run seamlessly. 

 

Good to know that HQP will run in a container. Good to know your thoughts if you get the brain.

[Superfuzzbigmuff]

  On 23/10/2024 at 10:57 PM, Dystoria said:

It sure does. M2 pro maxes out at DSD256 (not running the more computational intense filters).

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A quick question if you don't mind, do you have the "base" M2 Pro (10 CPU + 16 GB memory) or did you upgrade the CPU and/or memory?

 

Cheers - Shaun

 

[Dystoria]

Hey Shaun, I don't have an M2 pro but every forum I've read discusses the issues around the filters I want to use (which is why I don't have an M2 pro!). I'm currently running HQP 5 on a very noisy pc which samples to 512 but is choppy on the filters I want to use. I'm tempted to build a headless i9 14900 box but don't fancy spending $4000 on it. Happy to wait and see Jussi's recommendations on it.

cheers

Mark

[Superfuzzbigmuff]

Ahh - that's good background to have. Like you, I'll wait a bit longer to see what comes out of the woodwork.

 

Cheers - Shaun

[MattyW]

Meh, I ended up ordering this instead:

 

Passively cooled minipc: Ryzen 7730U, 32GB RAM and 512GB SSD - https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004825345981.html?

Linear power supply - https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004941690936.html?

 

I'll have a look once it arrives. With some luck it'll take a second SSD and I'll install a 2TG Crucial SSD. I'm planning to go with uBuntu Server and just run Plex and Roon in docker containers. 8 cores with 16 threads, 32GB RAM should have enough grunt that I can run whatever I want from it pretty seamlessly. I figure I'll just set VNC up on it so I can access for maintenance and run it headless.

 

I'll put all my music on it and just use the NAS for backups which means I can get a whole lot of crap/complexity off the NAS itself. Fewer snapshots required.

[Superfuzzbigmuff]

@Dystoria, you're no doubt all over this. Not anywhere as cheap as @MattyW's option.

 

https://www.apple.com/au/shop/buy-mac/mac-mini

 

No USB A ports (presume this isn't an issue), much smaller - not sure what that does for cooling - from what I read various NUC's & Mac Minis are constrained by the heat generated from the heavy processing in hqplayer.  I'm wondering of a refurbished Studio M2 mightn't be a bad option (cheaper, bigger box and apparently doesn't get stressed or hot, USB A port - so I don't have to buy new cables). I can go the upgrade path when the M4 Studio comes out next year maybe. I'm using a Denafrips DAC, which from my ears (via Roon upsampling, which I'm sure is inferior to hqplayer, which I don't have yet) and what I read is better suited to PCM files anyway, so maybe no point chasing the utopian upsampled DSD output. Too many decisions - I need a bit of @MattyW's decisiveness..... Oh well - back to work to pay for this terrible habit.

 

 

[Dystoria]

  On 29/10/2024 at 9:41 PM, Superfuzzbigmuff said:

you're no doubt all over this

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Thanks! I've been waiting for this all week. I'll check the specs as well but will hold off until some boffin reports back on a roon forum about performance with HQP. As a heads up I have a Holo Spring3 KTE running HQP5 and it sounds great running DSD 512 (but not the filters I want to try).

[MattyW]

  On 29/10/2024 at 9:41 PM, Superfuzzbigmuff said:

Too many decisions - I need a bit of @MattyW's decisiveness..... Oh well - back to work to pay for this terrible habit.

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Not sure its decisiveness though rather a need to buy something or I get bored..... And I do like buying on hunches provided not too much money is involved. Most of the time it pays off though not always. Gambling I suppose except I don't expect a monetary return. 

 

I view this purely as a way to get more processing power thrown at Roon and Plex with a completely passively cooled product. No fans to fail or get noisy, despite the fact it will be living the the garage far from my sound systems. Passive does mean greater reliability in a dusty environment and that's the main thing.

 

I figure the added processing power and plenty of RAM + storage means I can run whatever I want off of it with little to no slowdowns be it virtual machines to host whatever I may want or just docker containers for Plex and Roon. I don't really want to run anything natively from this machine as it means I can easily back up the entire configuration to the NAS. I can allow the NAS to spin down drives once I've done that which will prolong their life 

 

I'd rather put the money towards the future purchase of a Network Acoustics Tempo network switch as I think that will make a bigger difference than a purpose designed server. USB performance is irrelevant to me as I'll never have any audio devices hanging off it 

Edited October 29, 2024 by MattyW

[Superfuzzbigmuff]

  On 29/10/2024 at 9:59 PM, Dystoria said:

As a heads up I have a Holo Spring3 KTE running HQP5 and it sounds great running DSD 512 (but not the filters I want to try).

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Thanks for that - very useful to know. I have the Denafrips Venus. I note from the hqplayer website, that the DAC corrections for Holy Spring include PCM and DSD, but for Denafrips - only PCM. I'm not sure if that means Denafrips' sweet spot is only PCM? Certainly both native and upsampled DSD files via Roon, don't sound as good as PCM via the Denafrips (to my ears). That's another upgrade I need to think about - a new DAC (and one that's compatible with hqplayer if I go down that path)...

 

https://signalyst.com/dac-correction-support/

 

Yep - I get your logic @MattyW.  Rightly or wrongly, I park my server (currently the Nucleus Plus) next to the DAC and would do the same if I got a Mac. I only have one listening room. I run it via Clay's USB Rienegen to the DAC, which makes quite a difference and creates the necessary system isolation.

 

 

[MattyW]

  On 29/10/2024 at 10:35 PM, Superfuzzbigmuff said:

Thanks for that - very useful to know. I have the Denafrips Venus. I note from the hqplayer website, that the DAC corrections for Holy Spring include PCM and DSD, but for Denafrips - only PCM. I'm not sure if that means Denafrips' sweet spot is only PCM? Certainly both native and upsampled DSD files via Roon, don't sound as good as PCM via the Denafrips (to my ears). That's another upgrade I need to think about - a new DAC (and one that's compatible with hqplayer if I go down that path)...

 

https://signalyst.com/dac-correction-support/

 

Yep - I get your logic @MattyW.  Rightly or wrongly, I park my server (currently the Nucleus Plus) next to the DAC and would do the same if I got a Mac. I only have one listening room. I run it via Clay's USB Rienegen to the DAC, which makes quite a difference and creates the necessary system isolation.

 

 

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Have you considered a Music Angel Rhein Plus to use for the server though I suspect it may not have the grunt you need for DSD. One thing to consider though is whether the lower noise and improved sonics of a unit designed specifically for audio can give a bigger benefit with native PCM than upsampling to DSD. For me the answer was yes as I initially started off upsampling to DSD512 and found that a streamer pushing PCM gave better results though with standard/generic computers upsampling is the better option.

 

The components closest to your audio gear have the greatest impact on sonic performance in my experience so keeping electrically noisy gear remote does make a nice improvement. Course if thats possible with DSD as well that will make an improvement as well and I may revisit that once I've hard wired network cabling in the new home though I'm sadly reliant on a Wireless mesh at the moment so I've a linear power supply on that as well as Muon Pro streaming system on the  Silent Angel Munich MU streamer.

 

Anyway I guess what I'm trying to say is a good amount of processing power tends to be expensive, perhaps a lower noise solution with PCM may give the same benefit. The biggest gain for me was moving past connecting a PC to my system in some way shape or form to dedicated audio specific streamers 

Edited October 29, 2024 by MattyW

[Dystoria]

  On 29/10/2024 at 10:35 PM, Superfuzzbigmuff said:

Certainly both native and upsampled DSD files via Roon, don't sound as good as PCM via the Denafrips

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That's interesting. I can run PCM at 1.536mhz no problem but its a bit grainy (for me) whilst DSD 128 (via macbook pro 2018) is very good and dsd512 (via pc with limited filtering) is terrific. 

[Superfuzzbigmuff]

  On 29/10/2024 at 10:56 PM, MattyW said:

Have you considered a Music Angel Rhein Plus

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 Yes - John at Sound Gallery reckons it's better than a Nucleus Plus (which is just an Intel i7 NUC in a fancy box), but you're right it can't be a Roon Core and hqplayer at the same time (it will only be a hqplayer naa). I'd rather just have the one box - otherwise just stay with what I've got. I've also been thinking about the point you make around having an audio designed box with lower noise and improved sonics (which is not necessarily what the Mac is designed to do). I did for example upgrade the LPS to the Roon Nucleus to one of Clay's power supplies and it made a considerable difference, mainly I think because the Roon PS was inadequate during heavier DSP processing.

 

I used to have a Mac mini and "upgraded" the power supply to DC, but didn't feel it made any difference. I'm wondering if Clay's USB Reniegen would provide the necessary isolation from a "noisy" box sitting adjacent to the DAC? It certainly has improved things considerably for my current set up - better than a Denifrips DDC.

 

@Dystoria, I am wondering if the reason for PCM sounding better than DSD in my set up is Roon, or is it the Denafrips DAC (or a combination of both)? Playing DSD natively or via upsampling via Roon seems to stress it. This is part of the reason for my quest to get hqplayer in my set up some how. Even if PCM continues to be the sweet spot for the Denafrips DAC, I'd have access to other filters and be able to upsample beyond 756 (Roon's limit).

[MattyW]

  On 29/10/2024 at 11:17 PM, Superfuzzbigmuff said:

 Yes - John at Sound Gallery reckons it's better than a Nucleus Plus (which is just an Intel i7 NUC in a fancy box), but you're right it can't be a Roon Core and hqplayer at the same time (it will only be a hqplayer naa). I'd rather just have the one box - otherwise just stay with what I've got. I've also been thinking about the point you make around having an audio designed box with lower noise and improved sonics (which is not necessarily what the Mac is designed to do). I did for example upgrade the LPS to the Roon Nucleus to one of Clay's power supplies and it made a considerable difference, mainly I think because the Roon PS was inadequate during heavier DSP processing.

 

I used to have a Mac mini and "upgraded" the power supply to DC, but didn't feel it made any difference. I'm wondering if Clay's USB Reniegen would provide the necessary isolation from a "noisy" box sitting adjacent to the DAC? It certainly has improved things considerably for my current set up - better than a Denifrips DDC.

 

@Dystoria, I am wondering if the reason for PCM sounding better than DSD in my set up is Roon, or is it the Denafrips DAC (or a combination of both)? Playing DSD natively or via upsampling via Roon seems to stress it. This is part of the reason for my quest to get hqplayer in my set up some how. Even if PCM continues to be the sweet spot for the Denafrips DAC, I'd have access to other filters and be able to upsample beyond 756 (Roon's limit).

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I've a Rheinigen here also.... From experience while it does improve the USB output of a PC it still does not compete with the output of I2S or AES/EBU into your DAC. I2S seems to give the best results with AES/EBU a close second. USB does in some instances beat out coaxial and everything better optical.....

[Superfuzzbigmuff]

I guess it shows how system dependent these things are. I've found Clay's Renegien betters the Denafrips DDC feeding the DAC via a the same I2S cable you have (Tubulus). It seems a dark (and expensive) art to determine where the constraints in any given system are!   

[MattyW]

I've not found DDC's to be significantly better than USB TBH. It's the better dedicated streamers + OCXO clock which make a real difference. Thus far I've had a LPS modded Mutec MC3 + USB, Gustart U18 and AudioGD DI20HE DDC's and I would have to say they're on a similar level to the Rheinigen. It's only the better quality streamers which really step it up a bit.

 

I still have the DI20HE boxed up here. I must get around to listing it one of these days. It's been boxed up ever since I went to a Soundaware D300REF (which failed) and I'm now running the Silent Angel Munich MU..... Can't say I really like Silent Angels approach as you have to buy their linear power supply to get it to the level of the D300REF by which time it's really rather expensive. That and it's still handicapped by not having completed "Roon Ready" certification. Airplay 2 is just not as good though I do look forward to when thats done as I'll get a nice sonic uplift 

Edited October 30, 2024 by MattyW