Best DAC?

[aussievintage]

When you need to worry about what type of USB cable and whether a display is on or off, then those things are telling.  Once that level of audiophile minutia becomes part of the test, then proper controlled testing, double blind etc. is the only way to sort the wheat from the chaff, especially in light of the "all DACs sound the same" opinions.  The way you say "audiophile neurosis warning"  hints that you actually realise that, at some level at least.

 

[Tobes]

38 minutes ago, aussievintage said:

When you need to worry about what type of USB cable and whether a display is on or off, then those things are telling.  Once that level of audiophile minutia becomes part of the test, then proper controlled testing, double blind etc. is the only way to sort the wheat from the chaff, especially in light of the "all DACs sound the same" opinions.  The way you say "audiophile neurosis warning"  hints that you actually realise that, at some level at least.

 

Yeah of course.

I had duplicates of all the cabling, so making the setups identical seemed a good idea.

Nonetheless I was surprised at the screen result. I was just playing with settings not experimenting expecting sonic differences. I'd actually decided to move the D70 on as the Dac3 was audibly better to my satisfaction. I was genuinely surprised.  

Just sharing, feel free to disregard.

[Hi-Fi Whipped]

5 hours ago, Tobes said:

@muon* as long as you're enjoying your music that's all that counts.

 

Tone and dynamics are fundamental but I've found that I also appreciate transient precision and fine detail and like to hear into mixes and hear the different nature of recordings and tracks. A neutral, resolving dac does this best for me. 

Even though I was enamoured with the Holo May (which I owned for about 6 months) and that dac had a somewhat more robust sound and other positive traits over my Benchmark Dac 3, the latter did better with transients on some types of music and (overall) I missed some of the things the Dac 3 could do with certain genres. So ultimately I didn't keep the May. 

 

Full disclosure, I should say I recently acquired a Topping D70 Pro Sabre (the horror! ) - to see what the newest Sabre chip (ES9039 Pro) might offer over the es9028 in the Dac 3. 

I have both the D70 and Dac 3 connected with the same Neo d+ usb cables and Canare balanced interconects and level matched them using the input adjustment available on my HPA4 preamp.

I then grouped the dacs in Roon enabling me to switch between them with a button press while playing music. The D70 had the fast rolloff linear filter enabled, which is what the Dac 3 uses.

The dacs sound similar but Initially I thought the D70 Pro actually lacked a bit of transparency and focus compared to the Dac 3. However - audiophile neurosis warning - while fiddling with options I tried the D70 in 'auto' screen off mode and was surprised that things flipped and the D70 then seemed more transparent and focused than the Dac 3! 

I been listening to the D70 Pro for hours today, I really like it and I'm preferring it to the Dac 3, which has seen off a few other dacs in similar comparisons.

As long as you're enjoying your music that's all that counts.

 

I haven’t listened to $10k dacs, only a few decently put together Wolfson, AKM and Sabre dacs and the AKM based Geiseller dacs were my flavour, their mid range warmth just connected the highs and lows beautifully to my ears.

 

But hey dacs are like beer, everyone has a different favourite, but none of us should care what others like, because we all still get to enjoy beer the way we like it!

[Tobes]

11 hours ago, Hi-Fi Whipped said:

I haven’t listened to $10k dacs, only a few decently put together Wolfson, AKM and Sabre dacs and the AKM based Geiseller dacs were my flavour, their mid range warmth just connected the highs and lows beautifully to my ears.

 

But hey dacs are like beer, everyone has a different favourite, but none of us should care what others like, because we all still get to enjoy beer the way we like it!

For sure. No-one should care what somebody else chooses to have in their system.

 

My aim is to have the dac impose little or no 'flavour'. To this end a good guide is to play a diverse track list and listen for how the sound signature (balance, perspective, soundstaging etc) changes with different tracks - hint, it should be a lot - ie, let the recording dictate the sound. What usually ends up bugging me is when a component imposes a pervasive 'fingerprint' or is 'genre favorable'. With the latter I've found myself predominately listening to music that suits the component rather than being eclectic in music selection. Ultimately that leads to dissatisfaction. 

[Tobes]

Topping haters may have lost interest in thoughts on the D70 Pro Sabre, but I thought I'd make a brief mention of how it sounds via my Utopia headphones.

The Utopias aren't the most forgiving headphones and with the Benchmark HPA4 amp there is nowhere really to hide. The HPA4/DAC3 combo sound fine enough. However focus and precision is a step above with the HPA4/D70 Pro combo . Most interesting though is a certain silky refinement with the D70 (yeah, I know, Topping right?) that the DAC3 doesn't really convey. This of course mandates that the recording itself has this trait - the D70 obviously won't sound that way on everything, but on good recordings its apparent and overall the D70 sounds more refined. It makes for a very compelling headphone experience and encourages long listening sessions. Very nice.

[SL1200]

On 13/11/2024 at 9:17 PM, garyjac said:

This is a typical piece of string. So, let's refine things a bit.  Assuming we plot  performance .vs. price curve and the extremes are "poor/cheap" to "divine" (at a divine price), where is the peak of the curve?  Literally the maximum bang for the buck.

Can't really answer inasmuch as I have only owned a few DACs.  Two general comments: (1) most DACs especially in the last 10 years or so are very good.  (2) I am happy with my Matrix.  If you look at my profile it may be apparent that the Matrix is my cheapest component.  I can say however it is my best component.  

[garyjac]

Thanks.  Haven't tried the Matrix, but have given PS Audio Directstream and Topping D90 a go, financial opposites(!), and, you know what, I have to say the Topping D90 (older AKM chipset) well outperforms the Directstream.  Now for the irony...this is working from DAC / Pre into a PS Audio BHK250.  Sounds a bit mad, but there you have it.  Not my normal setup...I lean heavily to vinyl, btw.

[garyjac]

22 hours ago, Tobes said:

Topping haters may have lost interest in thoughts on the D70 Pro Sabre, but I thought I'd make a brief mention of how it sounds via my Utopia headphones.

The Utopias aren't the most forgiving headphones and with the Benchmark HPA4 amp there is nowhere really to hide. The HPA4/DAC3 combo sound fine enough. However focus and precision is a step above with the HPA4/D70 Pro combo . Most interesting though is a certain silky refinement with the D70 (yeah, I know, Topping right?) that the DAC3 doesn't really convey. This of course mandates that the recording itself has this trait - the D70 obviously won't sound that way on everything, but on good recordings its apparent and overall the D70 sounds more refined. It makes for a very compelling headphone experience and encourages long listening sessions. Very nice.

I agree. Topping is right up there.  I have, or had, in and out of my rig, Topping Pre90, PA7 Plus power amp and D90 DAC (AKM chipset).  The PA7 Plus is not much chop with anything other than an easy to drive 4 ohm speaker.  I connected it to my large ESLs and....noooo...  The Topping Pre90 and D90 DAC running balanced throughout are both excellent and outstanding when price is factored in.  I don't think you would buy a significantly better DAC.  I have compared the Topping DAC to  PS Audio Directstream and the Topping is better in just about every way that is meaningful to me.  Anyone want a used Directstream Mk1 in perfect cosmetic and working order, with bridge card?  That's what I think.  Oh, yes, both DACs running into PS Audio BHK250 signature amp.

[Tobes]

4 minutes ago, garyjac said:

Thanks.  Haven't tried the Matrix, but have given PS Audio Directstream and Topping D90 a go, financial opposites(!), and, you know what, I have to say the Topping D90 (older AKM chipset) well outperforms the Directstream.  Now for the irony...this is working from DAC / Pre into a PS Audio BHK250.  Sounds a bit mad, but there you have it.  Not my normal setup...I lean heavily to vinyl, btw.

Your experience with the Directstream doesn't surprise me. I owned the Directstream Jr and the tiny and inexpensive Topping D50 was in many ways better - more transparent. 

Every now and then I try a moderately priced (by audiophile standards) dac, but they have never lasted long term in my system.

[garyjac]

It will be worth keeping an eye out for the new Topping D900 Discrete, with 32 processor chips.  Successor to the D90 III Discrete which I think I will get and give a run. The "Muscian" DACs seem to be getting a good press too.  The "ultra" chip, high priced dac is dead, I think.

[Tobes]

For sure, I think there will always be a market for the uber priced dacs that have apparent heroic build and a good storyline behind them (like the Directstream). But I bet if the D70 Pro Sabre was in an impressive box from an 'audiophile' brand it could sell for 3 times its price. Easily.

The good thing is it can be had for <$1K.

I'll be interested how those higher priced Topping dacs pan out, though part of me thinks they're responding to the audiophile market and want a piece of that higher priced action. Nonetheless, given Topping's engineering chops, I expect them to be excellent dacs. 

Edited December 1, 2024 by Tobes

[POV]

Good discussion guys, it’s interesting to see people actually trying current Topping offerings and compare rather than just going off  the standard Topping hate.

 

I think that higher end DAC manufacturers are being pushed hard by a variety of European, American, and Chinese brands that are producing fantastic products in the sub $1500 range.

 

Thanks for sharing!

[Tobes]

2 hours ago, POV said:

Good discussion guys, it’s interesting to see people actually trying current Topping offerings and compare rather than just going off  the standard Topping hate.

 

I think that higher end DAC manufacturers are being pushed hard by a variety of European, American, and Chinese brands that are producing fantastic products in the sub $1500 range.

As well they should be.

No doubt there are fine dacs being made by some high end companies but, while I know everyones got to make a buck, some of the prices are really head scratching. Some companies use a proprietary dac design to separate themselves from the crowd - so sell on the premise that 'you can't get this elsewhere' - but quite a few of those are really average in technical performance.

Weiss are pretty ballsy basing their fine measuring Helios dac around the ES9038 chip and charging US$22K for the unit. Looking inside the dac, there is nothing that could even remotely justify the price. But at least it's competently designed I suppose. 

[Assisi]

4 hours ago, Tobes said:

Weiss are pretty ballsy basing their fine measuring Helios dac around the ES9038 chip and charging US$22K for the unit. Looking inside the dac, there is nothing that could even remotely justify the price. But at least it's competently designed I suppose. 

I am the owner of a Weiss Helios.  My unit was previously a Medus and before that a 2nd hand Medea.  Same enclosure just upgraded internals. With the Helios it was a complete replacement of the internals. Each step up was an improvement.  I understand and appreciate the two matters of affordability and the law of diminishing returns.  The Helios is listed for sale in the mid $k40 range in Australia. Whilst it is expensive I consider that the DAC is value for the outlay. As I have upgraded, my overall all expenditure has not been the current $A price.  Weiss look after their customers. The Helios has some serious features that the other DACs do not include.

 

 

In any system setup it is all about the sum of the parts.  The DAC is just one part.   I am certain that some of the low level priced DACs mentioned in this thread would be significant weak links in my setup.  The overall outcome would be degraded consequently. Where as in some systems low priced DACs might be fine.

 

 

Your comments that I have quoted above, to me are just unnecessary damning with faint praise.  Daniel Weiss is not just competent. In the both the digital Pro audio and Hi End audio he is world renowned for his products.  In the pro audio he has received international recognition such as a technical Grammy achievement in 2021.

 

I note that you are in Central Victoria. We probably live close to each other.  If you would like to listen to a system with Helios you are very welcome to visit and have the experience.  PM me and we can get together and enjoy some music and a discussion. 

 

John

[Tobes]

Sorry my comment rubbed you the wrong way. Eye watering pricing aside, I respect the quality and technical excellence of Weiss' products. I'll drop you a PM.

[POV]

As I described earlier in the thread my experience with Weiss has been a bit underwhelming, but I haven’t tried their highest end offerings.   

 

 

[MattyW]

On 19/11/2024 at 10:59 AM, andyr said:

 

Can I urge you to find someone with an Abbas (tube) DAC and go and listen.  Having heard one recently ... I am now a fanboi!  

 

 

Which one did you hear Andy out of interest? There was a DAC 3.1 sold on the classifieds recently. A full size unit. Likely an end game unit for most. 

 

There was also a full sized SW1X DAC sold on here recently. They're related in terms of the owners of each company having the same mentor though there appears to be some bad blood between them based on some of the threads online. They have similar but differing views in terms of voicing.

Edited December 1, 2024 by MattyW

[Assisi]

20 hours ago, POV said:

I think that higher end DAC manufacturers are being pushed hard by a variety of European, American, and Chinese brands that are producing fantastic products in the sub $1500 range.

The situation of the improvement of the performance of DACs relative to relatively lower prices is not unique to DACs.  It is applicable to probably every other audio component overtime.  Also applicable to probably every other product that you can name. It is the outcome of the trickle down impact or transfer of higher technology improvements and techniques down to lower technology.  This results in a commensurate improvement in the price performance benefit for lower technology. 

 

Nevertheless, the law of diminishing returns will always prevail.  I expect that if one’s  aspiration is a quality musical listening outcome, there will be a proportionate price impact.  To me price is definitely not an absolute indicator of quality.  There is relationship though.

 

John

[MattyW]

1 minute ago, Assisi said:

The situation of the improvement of the performance of DACs relative to relatively lower prices is not unique to DACs.  It is applicable to probably every other audio component overtime.  Also applicable to probably every other product that you can name. It is the outcome of the trickle down impact or transfer of higher technology improvements and techniques down to lower technology.  This results in a commensurate improvement in the price performance benefit for lower technology. 

 

Nevertheless, the law of diminishing returns will always prevail.  I expect that if one’s  aspiration is a quality musical listening outcome, there will be a proportionate price impact.  To me price is definitely not an absolute indicator of quality.  There is relationship though.

 

John

 

I must say this gels with me..... Though at a certainly point even small improvements can sound huge to us though typically inaudible to any but those extremely used to a given system.

 

I'd love to simplify my setup though unfortunately I just can't achieve the sonics at extreme low level listening that I enjoy. I have found full range driver based speakers to be fantastic for listening at low to medium volume..... Though you really need multiple drivers for highers levels.

 

Likewise the class AB amps I've tried don't really seem to come alive at lower levels hence my preference for class A amplification, specifically around VFET's with their high linearity.

 

The Absolute Audio Labs Balanzer takes the balanced input from my DAC and adds 6db to the signal, plus harmonics which give a certain weight and naturalness to the overall sound. Coloured yes, though at the same time less coloured than tubes whilst retaining the added weight and dimensionality I've come to expect. A critical component for me given this runs into a passive preamp in the form of an icOn 4PRO Slageformer pre which in turn feeds by Absolute Audio Labs SIT-A15 class A VFET amp.

 

The icOn 4 PRO is typically set to -42db attenuation which keeps the missus happy though does sound great at higher levels on the occasions she's not home.

 

I've a MiniDSP DI-22D between the streamer and AudioGD R7HE Mk2 DAC. I suspect I may never move on from this DAC. The review here explains its sound very well indeed: https://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-66-audio-gd-r7he-mk2-da-processor

 

I suspect in the wrong system it may even come across as a little bright though in mine at least it's beautifully liquid and natural sounding..... It seems to shine a light on the performance yet not in the hard ice picky way I generally associate with bright components so I'm not sure bright is even really the right term for it. Anyway, I'm a fan and it works beautifully with the rest of my setup taking on the characteristics of the equipment and track was recorded with which I find thoroughly enjoyable. If the studio used transformers and tube gear then thats the sound you get, transistor gear of the 80's sounds just like that also.... It'd be boring if everything sounded the same.

[Assisi]

26 minutes ago, MattyW said:

I've a MiniDSP DI-22D between the streamer and AudioGD R7HE Mk2 DAC. I suspect I may never move on from this DAC. The review here explains its sound very well indeed: https://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-66-audio-gd-r7he-mk2-da-processor

Interesting review

John

[andyr]

59 minutes ago, MattyW said:

Which one did you hear Andy out of interest? 

 

Sorry, don't know, Matt.  

 

@RockRolley?

 

[Artnet]

1 hour ago, MattyW said:

There was a DAC 3.1 sold on the classifieds recently.

 

Show me ,  show me, show me   Was aware of an Abbas 3.1 overseas for sale. but not local?

 

A quote from the master  "For creativity has no boundaries, ......"  The evolution of his product range is testament to this creativity!!

 

Without creativity there is no Best DAC  argument and no laying claim to it either.  The constant evolution and development displayed in many of the brands  mentioned here is exciting

 

There is of course a cost for creativity if we want it ?   Its a matter for the individual deciding what that is worth $200 or $40k

 

Viva la difference  for it develops our ears and our choice options all be mine slightly biased for now. and in the more moderate price point

Edited December 1, 2024 by Artnet

[RockRolley]

11 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

Sorry, don't know, Matt.  

 

@RockRolley?

 

ABBAS 2.3 SE with TDA1541 (maybe single crown-can't remember)

[MattyW]

8 minutes ago, Artnet said:

 

Show me ,  show me, show me   Was aware of an Abbas 3.1 overseas for sale. but not local?

 

A quote from the master  "For creativity has no boundaries, ......"  The evolution of his product range is testament to this creativity!!

 

Without creativity there is no Best DAC  argument and no laying claim to it either.  The constant evolution and development displayed in many of the brands  mentioned here is exciting

 

Viva la difference  for it develops our ears and our choice options all be mine slightly biased for now.

 

I may be getting mixed up with SW1X. I know for certain one of those sold on the classifieds recently. They're quite closely related but the founder has a very different view in terms of materials.

[RockRolley]

Haven't read the background on this post, but whereas my ABBAS TDA1541 dac is phenomenal, the Gieseler Kompact II TDA1541 is incredible too and compares VERY favourably. I have both the ABBAS and the Gieseler and can't part with either.

NB: ABBAS is great to deal with, however, Gieseler are local, accessible and great communication and service. Highly recommend both, however, if accessing an ABBAS, if that is desired, is challenging, Gieseler is a no-brainer

Edited December 2, 2024 by RockRolley
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