Directional cables?

[billy170468]

Evening all,

 

Just wonder how/why are (most) speaker cables are directional?

 

Do electrons say "Nah, sorry, we are not travelling up the cable that way... turn us around"

 

Cheers

 

Andy

[David A]

From what I understand it has to do with the grain boundaries of conductors which favour a smoother flow of elctrons in one direction. That's why many high end manufacturers use conductors with minimal grain boudaries, and in some cases, super premium "single grain" conductors with essentially completely smooth conductors which are non-directional.

[muon*]

2 hours ago, billy170468 said:

Evening all,

 

Just wonder how/why are (most) speaker cables are directional?

 

Do electrons say "Nah, sorry, we are not travelling up the cable that way... turn us around"

 

Cheers

 

Andy

Normally it is because they have a drain wire or braid (for shielding) which is connected at one end only.

 

Electrons move through a conductor at a snail pace, It's the Electro Magnetic Field created from the charge that is the carrier.

 

There is the opinion that the way the wire is drawn when being produced dictates a better path one way compared to the other, but I prefer to stay with the less controversial common reason for directionality of it being the inclusion of a drain wire.

Edited November 23, 2024 by muon*

[audiofeline]

The drain wire design is used on interconnects, the source end of the cable is the end which the drain wire is connected. 

I read on one audio forum about the directionality of cable, one person claimed to be able to tell the (subtle) difference when a cable is connected in one direction compared to the other.  The comment was made that the audio direction is consistent with the direction of any writing on the cable. 

[grammefriday]

I have also read on various forums, cable manufacturer websites and heard from some retailers that directionality is total nonsense ...... 

Not sure what to believe to be honest .....

[POV]

On 23/11/2024 at 10:54 PM, David A said:

From what I understand it has to do with the grain boundaries of conductors which favour a smoother flow of elctrons in one direction. That's why many high end manufacturers use conductors with minimal grain boudaries, and in some cases, super premium "single grain" conductors with essentially completely smooth conductors which are non-directional.

I’m not sure where you gathered this understanding from, but it is absolute nonsense (in the literal sense of the word).  Whoever told you this has no idea what they are talking about.

[POV]

On 23/11/2024 at 11:18 PM, muon* said:

Normally it is because they have a drain wire or braid (for shielding) which is connected at one end only.

 

Electrons move through a conductor at a snail pace, It's the Electro Magnetic Field created from the charge that is the carrier.

 

 

Yep, for interconnects this can be case and some of them do indeed have the shield terminated at one end only.  Though there is pros and cons to this approach.

[SonicArt]

On 23/11/2024 at 10:49 PM, billy170468 said:

Just wonder how/why are (most) speaker cables are directional?

I will try to give you some logical explanations. In a cable that has a standard geometry, say a conductor or set of conductors running from source to destination, one that could be turned around and would appear physically to be unchanged, the reason manufacturers label direction, or tell you to follow the writing is so that once the cable is burned in you continue to use it in the direction it was burned in at.

(I am not going to discuss cable burn in, ime dielectrics need time to settle with use and ime the higher quality the dielectrics the longer it takes to burn in fully).

 

So will the cable that has been running in your system for 6 months sound worse if you turn it around? Often it does, and its subtle, but if left to burn in again in the new direction it usually does so the same as it did the first time.

 

Now some cables are constructed in a certain way as to be directional and will not perform to their design parameters if reversed. All my interconnects are like this, and need to be run in the labelled direction.

 

An interconnect using a shield that floats at the destination end may not be directional as such in its construction, it may be a multi conductor with a + conductor connected end to end, and a - conductor connected end to end, with a shield covering them. So in essence you could run it either way, and simply connect the shield at the source end if that was the design. Once connected though you then need to run the cable in the one chosen direction, hence they label the cables so you know which way to run it.

 

So, putting aside the metallurgy, crystal length, grain orientation and 'boundaries' and all the other interesting terminology that has been created over the years, there are legitimate reasons for cable directionality.

 

My cables swing in only one direction, but I have no problem with cables that swing both ways

Edited November 27, 2024 by SonicArt
shouldn't do 3 things at once!

[bob_m_54]

6 hours ago, SonicArt said:

An interconnect using a shield that floats at the destination end may not be directional as such in its construction, it may be simple coax, or a multi conductor with a + conductor connected end to end, and a - conductor connected end to end, with a shield covering them.

 

I don't mean to be pedantic, but...

You're talking about a triaxial cable, in the context of what I bolded? ie Inner Conductor, Outer Conductor, and a single ended shield..

 

If you're talking about a "simple Coax", it has two conductors, the inner conductor, and the outer conductor. If the outer conductor isn't connected (even at only one end), it won't work unless you have a separate signal reference for the inner conductor of the coaxial cable. This is true for both analog and digital signals.

Edit: In fact the coax now becomes a shielded single conductor, and not a coaxial cable, as per the definition of coaxial cables.

 

I have no comment on the rest of the post though...

Edited November 27, 2024 by bob_m_54

[billy170468]

OK... Thank you for the replies so far....

 

I will say I am more interested in speaker cables than interconnects

 

cheers

 

Andy

[muon*]

I'd just get what sounds nice to you in your system, and use as directed by the maker.

 

The ins and outs of various design is interesting though.

[SonicArt]

47 minutes ago, bob_m_54 said:

I don't mean to be pedantic, but...

Yes thanks Bob, this is what happens when multi tasking and writing posts at the same time.  Simple coax is connected both ends of course, it comes under the category of non directional until it's been used.

[Eggmeister]

surely Nordost isn't lying ?

 

From their website

 

Are audio cables directional?

When cables are manufactured they do not automatically have any directionality. However, as they break in, they acquire directionality.

Small impurities in the conductor act as diodes, allowing signal flow to be better in one direction over time. Regardless of the purity of the metal used, there are diode effects in all conductors. Additionally, the insulation material changes when it is subjected to an electrical field.

All Nordost cables are directional. This is especially true for single ended (RCA) interconnects because the shield is connected at the source (or output) end only.

 

From Audioquest, surely they arent lying as well ?

 

There is the widely accepted version of directionality: In most audio-grade shielded interconnects, as compared to standard coax, negative has its own internal conductor and the metal shield is attached to ground at only one end, thus defining the cable’s directionality. Many cable manufacturers end their exploration of directionality there, going only as far as to mark their cables for directionality based on the relationship of shield to ground, but altogether neglecting conductor directionality. Because we believe in directing noise to where it can do the least harm, we, too, believe in the advantages of controlling for the attachment of the shield. In fact, long before we controlled for conductor directionality, AudioQuest interconnects were also controlled for direction based on the relationship of shield to ground.

Over the years, our understanding of conductor directionality and its effect on audio performance has steadily evolved, growing stronger and more complete. While we’ve always been keenly aware that directionality plays a significant role in the overall sound of any hi-fi system, we couldn’t completely explain it. This was okay: We trust our own ears and encourage listeners to do the same. The test is easy enough: Simply listen, then reverse the direction of the cable, and listen again.

In one direction, music will sound relatively flat and a little grainy, as though being forced through a screen door. In the opposite direction, the obstruction is removed and music will be communicated with a natural ease, depth, and an open invitation to pleasure. When presented with a cable whose conductors have been controlled for the correct low-noise directionality, a listener feels a sense of comfort and relief: Ahh…Music!

 

But the definitive empirical evidence of directionality demands seeking a scientific explanation. What is the technical explanation for directionality?

 

In order to fabricate copper or silver into a strand or conductor, it must first be cast and then drawn through a die—a process that inevitably creates a directional, chevron-like pattern in the conductor’s internal grain structure and a non-symmetrical overlay of grains at the conductor’s surface.

 

While most are either unaware of conductor directionality or have chosen to ignore it, we have learned to use conductor directionality to our advantage.

 

A conductor’s asymmetrical surface structure causes a directional difference in impedance at noise frequencies and very high interference frequencies. Due to skin-effect, such high-frequency energy travels almost exclusively on the surface of a conductor, giving significance to the directional difference in impedance at these frequencies. Because all energy will always take the path of least resistance, when a cable is oriented so that the high-frequency noise—whether from a computer, radio station, cell tower, etc.—is “directed” to ground, or to the end of the cable attached to less vulnerable equipment, the dynamic intermodulation and associated ringing generated in the active electronics will be greatly reduced.

 

Our efforts toward the proper dissipation of noise are not limited to our analog and digital cables, but extend to other AudioQuest products, as well—most recently evidenced in our Niagara 1000 and 7000 Low-Z Power Noise-Dissipation Systems, in which every single link in the conducting path has been properly controlled for low-noise directionality.

 

As always, the proof is in the listening.

 

The unpleasant, strained sound that occurs when conductors have the wrong orientation is the result of noise entering and causing misbehavior and intermodulation in an active circuit. The more relaxed, full-bodied sound of correctly oriented conductors is the product of less high-frequency interference—conductor directionality fully acknowledged and put to its best use!

 

Edited November 27, 2024 by Eggmeister

[Steff]

1 hour ago, Eggmeister said:

The unpleasant, strained sound that occurs when conductors have the wrong orientation is the result of noise entering and causing misbehavior and intermodulation in an active circuit. The more relaxed, full-bodied sound of correctly oriented conductors is the product of less high-frequency interference—conductor directionality fully acknowledged and put to its best use!

 

Among other things, this section reads like an instruction on how to experience confirmation bias.

Whether or not the high end manufacturers are "lying" - it's certainly in their interest to shepherd the consumer base toward their select exclusive magic-science sauce products.

Haven't touched my cables for months but I know that when I am tense I experience unpleasant, strained sounds - and when things are sweet I experience a relaxed, full-bodied sound. Probably I'm the correctly-oriented conductor at that moment.

Edited November 27, 2024 by Steff

[StereoNET]

A contentious topic, for sure - right up there with politics and religion. But as I (and I assume other mods) would rather do some offline things at this time of the evening I am putting this thread on Post Approval temporarily. 

 

But, I will say, a few posts have been removed. When you make it personal and/or insulting, you will receive a warning and/or time out. Otherwise, feel free to respectfully debate. 

[POV]

12 hours ago, SonicArt said:

I will try to give you some logical explanations. In a cable that has a standard geometry, say a conductor or set of conductors running from source to destination, one that could be turned around and would appear physically to be unchanged, the reason manufacturers label direction, or tell you to follow the writing is so that once the cable is burned in you continue to use it in the direction it was burned in at.

(I am not going to discuss cable burn in, ime dielectrics need time to settle with use and ime the higher quality the dielectrics the longer it takes to burn in fully).

 

So will the cable that has been running in your system for 6 months sound worse if you turn it around? Often it does, and its subtle, but if left to burn in again in the new direction it usually does so the same as it did the first time.

 

Now some cables are constructed in a certain way as to be directional and will not perform to their design parameters if reversed. All my interconnects are like this, and need to be run in the labelled direction.

 

An interconnect using a shield that floats at the destination end may not be directional as such in its construction, it may be simple coax, or a multi conductor with a + conductor connected end to end, and a - conductor connected end to end, with a shield covering them. So in essence you could run it either way, and simply connect the shield at the source end if that was the design. Once connected though you then need to run the cable in the one chosen direction, hence they label the cables so you know which way to run it.

 

So, putting aside the metallurgy, crystal length, grain orientation and 'boundaries' and all the other interesting terminology that has been created over the years, there are legitimate reasons for cable directionality.

 

My cables swing in only one direction, but I have no problem with cables that swing both ways

 

 

Sorry but there is actually very limted logic in this response though there is certainly a number of logical fallacies.

 

There is no credible scientific basis for the claim that audio cables develop directionality due to "burn-in" or dielectric settling.  In AC signal transmission, the current alternates direction, making the concept of directional "burn-in"  quite literally nonsensical.

 

While shielding configurations can make specific cables designs more effective at rejecting noise (or at least reduce the risk of introducing noise) when connected in a specific orientation, this does not imply at all nor does it follow that the conductors themselves are directional or that audible differences will occur when the cable is reversed.

 

Assertions about audible differences due to burn-in are bizzarre beyond words.   No measurable changes in electrical performance of cables of any description or utility following any period of use (before the cable becomes unservicable) have ever been produced to support these support these claims by anyone, and it's very clear to me why this is.  One of the services that my company provides is reliability engineering for saftey, mission critical, communications, and audio systems.  We do regular testing of cables and monitoring of associated data and have a huge library of data from literally thousands of cables in hundreds of system configurations, designs, materials, guages etc etc.  I have never once seen a single cable return a measurable difference over time across any parameter that wasn't within the error range of the highly advanced and calibrated test equipment.  Every time a material shift in any paramater has been observed it has been associated to an identifiable serviceability issue with the cable leading to either a repair (that typically returns the cable to it's previous measured performance within a very close tolerance) or it is replaced.

 

Manufacturers labeling cables for, or marketing cables for directionality is rarely because of technical necessity and in most cases no credible explanation is produced.    Introducing terms like "grain orientation" or "metallurgy" as if ther are relevant distracts from the core issue: the lack of measurable or scientifically verifiable phenomena underpinning the claims of cable directionality or burn-in effects.

 

While there are valid engineering reasons for very specific design choices (e.g., shielding direction), the broader claims about cable directionality due to burn-in and dielectric settling are not supported by the physics of audio signal transmission and literally zero empirical evidence exists anywhere.  This in itslef is telling, as this described phenomena if factual would profoundly re-inform our understanding of the associated physics and would be studied extensively.

 

I am really passionate about these kind of myths being dispelled, as by attempting to validate them posters are continuing the faith based, 'just believe' pseudoscience supported by anecdotal stories.

 

 

Edited November 27, 2024 by POV

[POV]

13 hours ago, Eggmeister said:

surely Nordost isn't lying ?

 

From their website

 

Are audio cables directional?

When cables are manufactured they do not automatically have any directionality. However, as they break in, they acquire directionality.

Small impurities in the conductor act as diodes, allowing signal flow to be better in one direction over time. Regardless of the purity of the metal used, there are diode effects in all conductors. Additionally, the insulation material changes when it is subjected to an electrical field.

 

Okay, whilst it's technically accurate that impurities in conductors, such as copper or silver, do exist,  their impact on electrical behavior at audio frequencies is beyond negligible. Audio signals are alternating current meaning the signal continuously alternates direction.   The reality is that any diode-like behavior would cause measurable asymmetry in the signal waveform, which would introduce distortion that would be easily measurable and at a point audible. However, no such distortion is observed or reported in controlled studies of audio cables, nor have I ever seen or heard of any situation where conductor impurites cause a diode effect that has been observed, measured or reported in any scenario of any cable installation.

 

If in fact impurities acted as diodes, we would see measurable non-linearities or harmonic distortions in the audio signal, especially at the junctions where these "diode-like" effects supposedly occur. These effects would be measurable using even basic DIY level electrical test equipment, yet this has never been captured. Nordosts marketing claims are in essence attempting to introduce the concept of impurities acting as diodes without offering evidence or explaining how this behavior is consistent with the extremely well-understood physics of conductors. It is absolutely a red herring in the truest sense of the term—introducing a completely irrelevant and unsupported technical-sounding concept to justify a broader claim about cable directionality.

 

Conductors with the same types of impurities are widely used in critical applications, such as medical devices, aerospace systems, and communication and radar systems, where signal fidelity is far, far  more sensitive than in audio. 

 

Conductors, including their impurities follow very well-understood principles of electrical conductivity. For an audio cable, the relevant factors are resistance, capacitance, and inductance, none of which are at all influenced by the purported "diode effects."   Here's the kicker, If diode-like behavior existed universally in all conductors as Nordost is claiming it would fundamentally alter our understanding of electrical systems, affecting everything,  in every system, everywhere.   Perhaps Nordost want to claim that they have in fact discovered something that refutes all accepted electrical theory, and if they have I would encourage them to publish a peer reviewed study.  In the meantime, I would be very happy to engage their chief engineer/designer in a public debate about their claims, anytime/anywhere.

 

I can't be bothered carrying on to Audioquest, their claims are equally ridiculous.

Edited November 27, 2024 by POV
splelling!

[Bronal]

I don't know why people get excited about this.  If the cable indicates directionality, use it that way.  If not, use it in the direction that sounds better (if you can tell).

[Cloth Ears]

15 hours ago, Bronal said:

I don't know why people get excited about this.  If the cable indicates directionality, use it that way.  If not, use it in the direction that sounds better (if you can tell).

Mine are directional. The electrons travel from the amp end to the speaker end in one direction (not the name of the band). Or is it the other way, I can never remember.

[rantan]

1 hour ago, Cloth Ears said:

Mine are directional. The electrons travel from the amp end to the speaker end in one direction (not the name of the band). Or is it the other way, I can never remember.

Have you tried it both ways?

If so, were there any differences?

I once had some cables that had an arrow pointing one way but I didn't know this until I was doing some changes of placement, so I changed to the way the arrow but I could never perceive ( or hear) any difference at all.

In my NSHO and in my situation and my gear it seems to be somewhat of a placebo.

Quite obviously others do not share this opinion so it comes down to perception moreso than science.

[Cloth Ears]

12 minutes ago, rantan said:

Have you tried it both ways?

If so, were there any differences?

I once had some cables that had an arrow pointing one way but I didn't know this until I was doing some changes of placement, so I changed to the way the arrow but I could never perceive ( or hear) any difference at all.

In my NSHO and in my situation and my gear it seems to be somewhat of a placebo.

Quite obviously others do not share this opinion so it comes down to perception moreso than science.

That's a bit of a personal question, isn't it?

 

When my hearing was better, I tried a number of different ways. Direction, raised off the floor, sand-filled casings,  bi-wire, bi-amp...not much difference that couldn't be attributed to tiredness or that third glass of red. I don't worry about it so much now.

 

I believe that, actually, the electrons flow both ways through any cable - otherwise your speakers would end up full of electrons and you'd have to clean them out once in a while. Then again, maybe there's a new item I can market to the hi-end audiophile - an electron vacuum to clean out your speakers!!!

[bob_m_54]

On 27/11/2024 at 4:08 PM, SonicArt said:

Yes thanks Bob, this is what happens when multi tasking and writing posts at the same time.  Simple coax is connected both ends of course, it comes under the category of non directional until it's been used.

Coaxial cable is not directional for neither analog nor digital signals. Trust me, I've used it and done tests on it using pretty accurate test equipment in the Avionics world. It is just installed as per spec, and directionality is not one of the engineering criteria even quoted in the design spec, quoted on the cable datasheets nor even considered.

 

Edit: Actually the same can be said for any wiring used in the same scenario, except where shielded conductors have single end grounded shields.

Edited November 28, 2024 by bob_m_54

[SonicArt]

I never said any particular cable is manufactured directional I was simply trying to give an explanation to the OP as to why manufacturers may say to run in a particular direction or follow the printing on the cable.

 

All my cabling is manufactured to MilSpec in aerospace factories so I have some understanding of the construction guidelines and testing procedures. I also use some of the aerospace design tech in certain cables, and none of the conductor looms I have made are directional off the roll, it is however once assembled into a cable.

 

As for burn in, I am not going by faith, I clearly stated "my experience" not a published fact. There are some cables that have never sounded different one way or the other to me, there are many that have. I am not however going to belittle another person simply because he has a different experience to me. Nor would I make it my quest in life to wipe out another groups experience simply because science tells me they can't have that experience.

[bob_m_54]

34 minutes ago, SonicArt said:

I never said any particular cable is manufactured directional I was simply trying to give an explanation to the OP as to why manufacturers may say to run in a particular direction or follow the printing on the cable.

 

All my cabling is manufactured to MilSpec in aerospace factories so I have some understanding of the construction guidelines and testing procedures. I also use some of the aerospace design tech in certain cables, and none of the conductor looms I have made are directional off the roll, it is however once assembled into a cable.

 

As for burn in, I am not going by faith, I clearly stated "my experience" not a published fact. There are some cables that have never sounded different one way or the other to me, there are many that have. I am not however going to belittle another person simply because he has a different experience to me. Nor would I make it my quest in life to wipe out another groups experience simply because science tells me they can't have that experience.

OK I see the distinction between what you are saying, and what I posted.. But in the spirit of having different points of view, I'll leave it there though.

[The Rock Puppy]

7 hours ago, rantan said:

Have you tried it both ways?

Have you been listening to Supernaut on the sly?