BTam Posted January 26 Posted January 26 Hi, I’m thinking about getting a separate power line from main to music system: 2 wall outlets for amplifier and DAC , laptop, CD Player. Please comment whether it would have any benefits. My amp is power hungry: if the wall outlet is sharing with other equipment, or if using an extension cord, it can lose a bit of clarity and bass. I think at least the 2.5mm wire from main to power the amp only is better than ordinary domestic wall circuit which serves 5-6 wall double outlets. Sharing does not reduce voltage (V) but definitely current (I). By the way I’m also looking for a reasonable power board or conditioner, so please give some advice, thanks and cheers.
doogie44 Posted January 27 Posted January 27 I ran a dedicated line to get rid of the noise from other household appliances and light switches. I combined this with a Thor PS-10 power conditioner (but not the Thor power board, too dinky). My valve gear heaved a grateful sigh as the fluctuating voltage was no more! Previously, my high current amp definitely needed its own outlet/source, in my opinion. No sharing please. Then I added a DC Blocker for good measure. Good power cords generally (mainly Isotek and such, going up). In days gone by I had a PS Audio Power Centre Board which did everything for my smaller system. Around $1,000. Money well spent. It is very like a dedicated line. https://www.classaaudio.com.au/power-conditioner-filter-and-powerboard/1205-ps-audio-dectet-power-center.html?srsltid=AfmBOooILqlu3XSt3pg2Yf1PqEGkClnaPOHpW-iyYa2Pi8bRijuZTvdv "The Dectet is an active three zone, ten outlet power center producing clean unrestricted AC power for an entire high-end audio or video system. Protection from surges, spikes and overloads, plus superior filtering and star wiring are incorporated in this power center to give maximum benefit to both audio and video systems. Available in US, UK, Shuko and Australian outlets. The Dectet Power Center is built to power and fully protect your entire system with improved dynamics, increased harmonic integrity and an open spacious soundstage that can be breathtaking. Ten individually hand wired Power Port outlets, three isolated zones and all available at a price you can afford. Filtration is handled through large core high permeability magnetic devices wound with heavy gauge OFC providing both common mode and differential mode filtering you can both measure and hear. Protection is through both microprocessor controlled over/under voltage surge guard and MOV spike that will always make sure your equipment is fully protected. Each of the Power Port outlets on the Dectet are hand wired with a star wiring system that provides similar benefits to having individual dedicated lines feeding each piece in your high-end audio system." You can go mad spending on these things--but having good clean power for a high current amp requires a dedicated line, I think. My original line installation cost some $700 all up. In your case you could try something with your current power, like the PS Audio, first; you'd definitely notice the difference. That may be all you need? I hope this helps.
crisis Posted January 27 Posted January 27 5 hours ago, BTam said: Hi, I’m thinking about getting a separate power line from main to music system: 2 wall outlets for amplifier and DAC , laptop, CD Player. Please comment whether it would have any benefits. My amp is power hungry: if the wall outlet is sharing with other equipment, or if using an extension cord, it can lose a bit of clarity and bass. I think at least the 2.5mm wire from main to power the amp only is better than ordinary domestic wall circuit which serves 5-6 wall double outlets. Sharing does not reduce voltage (V) but definitely current (I). By the way I’m also looking for a reasonable power board or conditioner, so please give some advice, thanks and cheers. I did this from my fuse box to a 4 outlet dedicated run. My amp is not power hungry but the system does sound completely silent. It only cost me $100 (mates rates). I think it makes a lot more sens than expensive power conditioners. Get the basics right first. 2
BTam Posted January 27 Author Posted January 27 1 hour ago, doogie44 said: I ran a dedicated line to get rid of the noise from other household appliances and light switches. I combined this with a Thor PS-10 power conditioner (but not the Thor power board, too dinky). My valve gear heaved a grateful sigh as the fluctuating voltage was no more! Previously, my high current amp definitely needed its own outlet/source, in my opinion. No sharing please. Then I added a DC Blocker for good measure. Good power cords generally (mainly Isotek and such, going up). In days gone by I had a PS Audio Power Centre Board which did everything for my smaller system. Around $1,000. Money well spent. It is very like a dedicated line. https://www.classaaudio.com.au/power-conditioner-filter-and-powerboard/1205-ps-audio-dectet-power-center.html?srsltid=AfmBOooILqlu3XSt3pg2Yf1PqEGkClnaPOHpW-iyYa2Pi8bRijuZTvdv "The Dectet is an active three zone, ten outlet power center producing clean unrestricted AC power for an entire high-end audio or video system. Protection from surges, spikes and overloads, plus superior filtering and star wiring are incorporated in this power center to give maximum benefit to both audio and video systems. Available in US, UK, Shuko and Australian outlets. The Dectet Power Center is built to power and fully protect your entire system with improved dynamics, increased harmonic integrity and an open spacious soundstage that can be breathtaking. Ten individually hand wired Power Port outlets, three isolated zones and all available at a price you can afford. Filtration is handled through large core high permeability magnetic devices wound with heavy gauge OFC providing both common mode and differential mode filtering you can both measure and hear. Protection is through both microprocessor controlled over/under voltage surge guard and MOV spike that will always make sure your equipment is fully protected. Each of the Power Port outlets on the Dectet are hand wired with a star wiring system that provides similar benefits to having individual dedicated lines feeding each piece in your high-end audio system." You can go mad spending on these things--but having good clean power for a high current amp requires a dedicated line, I think. My original line installation cost some $700 all up. In your case you could try something with your current power, like the PS Audio, first; you'd definitely notice the difference. That may be all you need? I hope this helps.
bob_m_54 Posted January 27 Posted January 27 5 hours ago, BTam said: Sharing does not reduce voltage (V) but definitely current (I). Not quite right. Heavy loads on a wire that's too small will cause a bigger voltage drop, so the voltage at the load will be reduced. Having said that, Drawing 10A over 10M of standard 1.5mmsq cable will give you a voltage drop of about 2.36V, which is 1.03% of your nominal 230VAC If the current has peaks of 15A, during heavy base beats, then you'll get a voltage drop of 3.54V during those peaks, still only 1.54% of you nominal supply of 230VAC. 1
Addicted to music Posted January 27 Posted January 27 You need to specified the equipment you have so we know what the total power consumption will be. I doubt that it will exceed 10A even at peak demanded music bass loads. Separate circuits only isolates you from other appliances but doesn’t isolate you at the switchboard as the active joins to a common point. Your power amp if it has a decent storage electrolytic capacitors will be the only consideration during switch on when the caps are fully discharged, that puts an enormous demand on the building electrical for a fraction of seconds. If you switch on your power amp and there’s no effect of light dimming than you’re safe. Most good designers will have “soft Start’ that dampeners the inrush current on switch on. There are amplifiers requiring 15A or 30A single phase, if that’s the requirement then yes you’ll need to assessed you’re electrical needs and a electrician is needed.
bob_m_54 Posted January 28 Posted January 28 On 27/01/2025 at 4:55 PM, Addicted to music said: If you switch on your power amp and there’s no effect of light dimming than you’re safe. hahaha.. that would be big inrush load, and I'd be somewhat concerned.
playdough Posted January 28 Posted January 28 On 27/01/2025 at 3:44 PM, bob_m_54 said: Not quite right. Heavy loads on a wire that's too small will cause a bigger voltage drop, so the voltage at the load will be reduced. Having said that, Drawing 10A over 10M of standard 1.5mmsq cable will give you a voltage drop of about 2.36V, which is 1.03% of your nominal 230VAC If the current has peaks of 15A, during heavy base beats, then you'll get a voltage drop of 3.54V during those peaks, still only 1.54% of you nominal supply of 230VAC. Out of interest, 15A peaks x 230v = 3450 watts !!!!! This is the realm of amplifiers like the EV P3000 Precision which weighs 18Kg and draws 500w at idle. 1
Jakeyb77_Redux Posted January 28 Posted January 28 I have 2 separate 15 amp power lines in my room with their own breakers at the box. Recommended by Krell for the mono amps.
bob_m_54 Posted January 29 Posted January 29 10 hours ago, playdough said: Out of interest, 15A peaks x 230v = 3450 watts !!!!! This is the realm of amplifiers like the EV P3000 Precision which weighs 18Kg and draws 500w at idle. Yep, and some people want to run 4mmsq LOL 1
playdough Posted January 29 Posted January 29 40 minutes ago, bob_m_54 said: Yep, and some people want to run 4mmsq LOL Hi Bob If the cable run is very long, say 35m, 4mm for lowest voltage drop and earth resistance, for a 15A circuit..that's a continuous rating though.
bob_m_54 Posted January 29 Posted January 29 3 minutes ago, playdough said: Hi Bob If the cable run is very long, say 35m, 4mm for lowest voltage drop and earth resistance, for a 15A circuit..that's a continuous rating though. Yeah if you're running near full load on a 15A cct, over 35M, then that will warrant 4mm, as the next size down is 2.5mm which will give you over 3% voltage drop, at the nominal mains 230VAC. Buit not sure what you are getting at by "earth resistance" with respect to mains cable size.
andyr Posted January 29 Posted January 29 On 27/01/2025 at 3:44 PM, bob_m_54 said: Not quite right. Heavy loads on a wire that's too small will cause a bigger voltage drop, so the voltage at the load will be reduced. Absolutely true! On 27/01/2025 at 3:44 PM, bob_m_54 said: Having said that, Drawing 10A over 10M of standard 1.5mmsq cable will give you a voltage drop of about 2.36V, which is 1.03% of your nominal 230VAC Why would anybody want to use 1.5mm^2 cable for mains circuits, Bob? I thought: 1.5m^2 was for lighting circuits and 2.5mm^2 was the standard for (10a) power circuits and higher guage - like 6mm^2 - was for arc welders ... or audiophiles? 1
bob_m_54 Posted January 29 Posted January 29 40 minutes ago, andyr said: Absolutely true! Why would anybody want to use 1.5mm^2 cable for mains circuits, Bob? I thought: 1.5m^2 was for lighting circuits and 2.5mm^2 was the standard for (10a) power circuits and higher guage - like 6mm^2 - was for arc welders ... or audiophiles? Yes, slip up on my part. But it does illustrate how unnecessary it is going to 4mm and above, in most cases. 1
playdough Posted January 29 Posted January 29 (edited) The power point I want for the stereo is under the main switchboard,,,,something like this will run the EV's with vigor, provided the battery can cough up the current, for the rock concert. Note, star point earthing and metal backing plane,,, Edited January 29 by playdough
playdough Posted January 29 Posted January 29 (edited) On 29/01/2025 at 9:49 PM, bob_m_54 said: Buit not sure what you are getting at by "earth resistance" with respect to mains cable size. Earthing, under the AS/3000 Wiring Rules, earth return resistance has to remain low for the return of earth to active current path in event of a short, correct and fast operation of the Residual Current mini circuit breaker. Above is a 5Kva (continuous) Inverter charger with incrementally adjustable single phase mains ac output, IMO superior to the retail mains for a number of reasons,. The earthing methodology(zero point) is based on being the lowest possible resistance of any conductor circuit (6mm2). Every metal case and backing plane is solidly bolted and cabled to the earth link in the main switchboard, where the multiple earth neutral is created. Nice and quiet, undistorted ac waveform with very low resistance earthing, for fault return path and earth potential rise mitigation . It'll be installed in the coming days and create a workshop/remote home supply for decades to come. It's missing a DC/DC coupled solar controller for now, pre wired however, for future expansion and go from 5Kw of solar input to 10. Edited January 30 by playdough
andyr Posted January 29 Posted January 29 10 hours ago, bob_m_54 said: Yes, slip up on my part. But it does illustrate how unnecessary it is going to 4mm and above, in most cases. In my view ... you are looking at the wrong problem. The issue is not how much voltage is dropped along the power line ... the relevant point from a 'hifi PoV' is the amount of resistance the power line has. A thicker power line will have less resistance than a thin power line - hence, current will flow more easily into the power amp, when it's required for a transient.
playdough Posted January 29 Posted January 29 (edited) There is more to equation than just resistance in the cable, especially chasing audio nirvana. Found this interesting, getting into the theory of power supplies, explains a lot of things,, Especially if/when using large linear power supplies with low power factor and use of SMPS that operate at close to unity, 2 large linear supplied mono blocks for example, what effect on the mains ac waveform and what that resulting waveform might have on the front end or head of the system analogue or digital. Edited January 30 by playdough 2
andyr Posted January 30 Posted January 30 Very interesting, @playdough ... but a whole 'nuther can of worms! 1
playdough Posted January 30 Posted January 30 (edited) 2 hours ago, andyr said: Very interesting, @playdough ... but a whole 'nuther can of worms! Sure is, the proverbial elephant quietly sitting on the other side of the room. Personally got rid of any electrically powered appliances that didn't have specifications of unity or very close to unity power factor, including power amplification, ac waveform distorting devices,,, There is more to the equation than just a cable...just sayin Cheers. Edited January 30 by playdough 1
Addicted to music Posted January 30 Posted January 30 3 hours ago, playdough said: Sure is, the proverbial elephant quietly sitting on the other side of the room. Personally got rid of any electrically powered appliances that didn't have specifications of unity or very close to unity power factor, including power amplification, ac waveform distorting devices,,, There is more to the equation than just a cable...just sayin Cheers. one way to reduce electricity usage. Now you understand why everything is going SMPS.
playdough Posted January 30 Posted January 30 (edited) 12 hours ago, Addicted to music said: one way to reduce electricity usage. Now you understand why everything is going SMPS. Poor power factor consumption of the stereo as a device in its own right is something that I have not really seen discussed in this forum,,,,,,something I've worked with for a while with good results. I can't see anyone giving up linear supplies however,,,, Edited January 30 by playdough 1
cafe67 Posted January 31 Posted January 31 On 28/1/2025 at 2:27 PM, bob_m_54 said: hahaha.. that would be big inrush load, and I'd be somewhat concerned. My old Nakamichi PA7 used to do that
Addicted to music Posted January 31 Posted January 31 7 hours ago, playdough said: Poor power factor consumption of the stereo as a device in its own right is something that I have not really seen discussed in this forum,,,,,,something I've worked with for a while with good results. I can't see anyone giving up linear supplies however,,,, You find that there’s a turn around to aim towards SMPS, all nCore/Purifi class D uses SMPS. Manley Audio uses Bruno P SMPS specifically designed and made for them. You can see on the FFT they are so much cleaner around the 50hz region and lower noise floor. It also benefits with weight reduction that Manley Audio is taking advantage of. You don’t have to ship a large transformer that weights 5-15kg and the huge bank of caps. SMPS also benefits with mains around the world without consideration plus plus all round. Also you can reduced the realestate footprint as size is reduced! It’s just the old way of thinking that prevents the market from converting 2
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