Help - problem solving sound quality issues with my hi-fi system

[sijo1974]

hi all - hoping to draw on the quality hive mind on the forum.

 

I recently put together my first quality hi-fi system.  breakdown below:

 

Amp:  Willenston R8 with full skunkie mods (tested and approved by an electrician) - PSVANE KT-88s and EL34s - factory provided tubes.

Speakers: Bosendorfer VC-7 floor standers

DAC: Wiim Ultra

connectors:  banana for speakers.  RCA for the Wiim.  These are fairly generic cables, nothing expensive.

 

I've had this system for the past couple of months and, while really impressed from what i had previously, am surprised by a few things.

 

When i listen to certain pop records the vocals present with what i would describe as 'clipping'.  an obvious break up of the vocal track, particularly on female vocals.  i'm not driving either the DAC or amp, so don't think this is the issue.

 

also, when playing heavier music with great bottom end (Tool is a great example) the weight is just not there.  i will say, the detail of the speakers with jazz and 'quieter' music is very impressive.

 

Besides going through the time and effort to replace the speakers, is it worth considering a sub to help with the bottom end?

 

can anyone suggest tests or ways to isolate these issues and how to resolve?  While not super high end, i think this set up is a nice start for a beginner and am hoping to tune/tweak it to perform at it's best.

 

FYI - i'm in a rental so acoustic treatments are probably for a later date when i have my own place.  i have experimented with quite a number of different speaker placements in the room which hasn't addressed this 'clipping' issue.

 

any help would be really appreciated.  even being pointed to resources on the web would be fantastic.

 

thanks all

 

cheers

Simon

 

 

[sijo1974]

here are two images of my room.  i don't know why they're upside down.

 

FYI - i move the speakers out into the room when i'm intending to listen.  i've found the best sound detail seems to be with the speakers well away from all walls and toed-in towards the middle of the couch.

 

thanks again

 

S

[Willmax]

From a brief search online I'd suggest that your speakers might be the issue there, likely not really suitable for the type of amplifier you're using, probably lacking in synergy as well. 

 

You might need to try another amplifier with those speakers or other speakers with your amplifier. 

[Godot]

4 hours ago, sijo1974 said:

here are two images of my room.  i don't know why they're upside down.

 

FYI - i move the speakers out into the room when i'm intending to listen.  i've found the best sound detail seems to be with the speakers well away from all walls and toed-in towards the middle of the couch.

 

thanks again

 

S

Here you go. My neck was hurting trying to check these out. 

[Godot]

Are there 2 sets of speakers there? Do you feel like you get the same sound characteristics from both sets of speakers?

[Almaz]

Have you tried a different amp to see if you have the same issue?

To your question a well placed Sub will definitely help you your bottom end performance. Also a photo of your connections on the back of the amp may also be helpful.

 

Regards

John

[Grizzly]

I suspect either the amp isn't able to deliver sufficient current and/or troublesome room acoustics. 

 

As a cost free exercise, perhaps move the system  to fire across rather than down the room and see what (if any) difference there might be. 

 

[Steff]

I can also only speculate here (amp mismatch given the speaker is a 4 Ohm speaker?). A couple of physical aspects: the speakers do not appear at identical toe-in angles (this will cause timing issues) nor equidistant to the listening position.

There's a large doorless opening (loss of reflection) and what seems like ample space behind the listening position meaning very little bass loading in the room.

This article suggests that the side-firing bass and mid-range drivers need a side wall nearby and careful positioning...and even THEN they're not about creating much "grip" (the nominal frequency response of 25hz at the bottom end is hard to believe).

 

If you can get a hold of a stronger amp and position the speakers for better bass-loading near a side wall, that might give you some comparisons.

Class D amps are an inexpensive option these days (Fosi, etc.)—not everyone loves their sound but many do.

Frequent clipping will damage your speaker coils, best not to try that again.

[xlr8or]

It appears you have the same issue as @Tube with input saturation. Check under the R8 thread for further details.

[Spinspin69]

Factory tubes drill also be contributing to the negative sound. 

[wen]

@sijo1974 i read a post from 2018 on sna, amp used was putting out 450watts @ 4 ohms, he was very happy with outcome. Speakers a highly regarded but need careful placement, unfortunately your room is an even bigger challenge for placement

[Tube]

5 hours ago, xlr8or said:

It appears you have the same issue as @Tube with input saturation. Check under the R8 thread for further details.

Sound distortion problem:
The setup is: Android phone --> Ifi Audio Zen Blue V2 DAC --> R8 --> speakers DynAudio S1.4 (sensitivity 85dB/4 ohm).

When phone is set to 100% volume and I control the volume with the R8-remote, then listening to music at higher volume (11 o’clock+), I can hear quite some distortion in the music, and loud clicks/pops now and then.

If I set the volume to 70% on the phone, then the distortion and clicks are gone.

Why? Is the amp input too sensitive, so overloading the input? Help!

[sijo1974]

hi everyone - i really appreciate all your feedback.   responses to each comment below:

 

Willmax - i think this is where i'll probably land.  i.e, replacing either the amp or the speakers.  the amp has both 4 and 8 ohm posts.  selecting 4 ohm is produces much better sound quality.

 

Godot - the smaller JBL speakers run my home theatre set up, using a marantz SR5500.  the bass response from these is much better than the Bosendorfers.

 

Steff - thanks for the detailed response.  i'll check the article and re position the speakers against a side wall, and close the doors behind the couch, to see if that helps.  from what i understand the R8 should be powerful enough to drive the speakers but will do some more research.  also, my use of the term 'clipping' might not be accurate.  it doesn't sound like the overall sound is clipping, more that the vocal has a 'trill' on higher notes.  if that makes sense?

 

SpinSpin69 - came across valvesNmore Tube Store that sell recommended tubes for the R8.  might look at replacing them with some Russian golds.

 

Wen - i think i read the same article when i was deciding on purchasing.  the speakers came at a very reasonable price, so i bought them thinking i'd fine the best amp to match afterwards.  maybe a mistake.  The speakers retailed for $30,000 and i got them much cheaper than that, which motivated the purchase.

 

thanks again all - will report back on any identified improvements.

 

cheers

Simon

 

[Steff]

8 minutes ago, sijo1974 said:

it doesn't sound like the overall sound is clipping, more that the vocal has a 'trill' on higher notes.  if that makes sense?

 

I suspect we'd have to hear it. Do you have a recording on your phone? Youtube search wasn't all that helpful.

 

10 minutes ago, sijo1974 said:

re position the speakers against a side wall, and close the doors behind the couch, to see if that helps.  from what i understand the R8 should be powerful enough

 

It'll be interesting to see what some more corner loading can accomplish. It may also be the case that not only does the tube amp not neatly supply the bass capacitiy of your speakers (isn't that a common observation around tube amps?) but also that the Boesendorfer design aims at acoustic live music reproduction (that's their marketing blurb anyway) and that would also indicate a more muted bass response. Again, I'm only speculating.

Three major attack vectors: 1. room 2. speaker placement 3. added amplification (even class D for only the bass)

[Assisi]

The plant on the right of the couch needs a good water I think.

 

John

[sijo1974]

LOL 

 

it's meant to be one you can't really kill but i seem to be doing a good job on it!

[Assisi]

44 minutes ago, sijo1974 said:

LOL 

 

it's meant to be one you can't really kill but i seem to be doing a good job on it!

I would give it a good soak.

 

John

[sijo1974]

i think over watering might have been the problem.  will give a good prune and see what happens.

 

another question for people - what are the views of the Audiolab 7000A?  looking to buy a CD transport and the reviews i've seen look like it delivers real value for the price.

 

from my other selections (Wiim Ultra, Willenston R8) you can get an idea of the price bracket i'm working in.

 

cheers

 

[sijo1974]

apologies - i meant Audiolab's 7000CDT.  Simon

[crisis]

Do you have any EQ  running on the WIMM? eg bass or treble boost?

[sijo1974]

hi Phil - i'm planning to play with Wiim settings and speaker position tonight.

 

for those interested i came across this 50 page doc from the designer of the Bosendorfers, Hans Deutsch.  

 

They were rebranded Brodmann at some point.  the doc makes for interesting reading re: the approach to speaker design.  

 

i was aware of this before i bought them but this provides so much more information: Microsoft Word - The Acoustic Active Principle, Technikmappe_E_08_2005 m.ACT+Schem._Stand lt.Datum re._+Techn.datas.dot 

[sijo1974]

http://www.hans-deutsch.com/theacousticactiveprincip.pdf 

[sijo1974]

Just dropping in again for an update

 

Followed Steff's suggestion and positioned the speakers into each corner, 23cm from each side wall and 38cm from the back.  selected 'pre-in' on the R8, rather than 'Aux'.

 

I can't describe the difference in sound stage and bass response.  I played Pneuma from Tool's last album, which is a reference track for me, and am happy to say, i welled up with the sound.

 

thought i'd made some stupid ill-advised purchases.  So pleased with what i've heard from just that one track.

 

thanks to everyone who responded to my newbie questions.  excited to play with tuning speaker position for ever better sound!

 

Simon 

 

[xlr8or]

34 minutes ago, sijo1974 said:

selected 'pre-in' on the R8, rather than 'Aux'.

 

The input sensitivity for the source has changed from 380mV to 820mV going to preamp in on the R8. You should have more headroom available before any input saturation.