3 Way Eliptrac Horn Klipsch La Scalas

[davewantsmoore]

  On 04/06/2014 at 2:33 AM, green wagon said:

others call them, delusions

 

I think that's very unfortunate.

 

The "default" assumptions that all subjective reports are "placebo" ... and all measured data is "meaningless" ....  are two of the biggest, most ridiculous, furfies going around.

 

 

We know very well that ....    Measurements are difficult to interpret (can easily tell us false truths) .... and ears / brains are often fooled

 

... but assuming this to always be true, leads us right to the dark ages.

[Full Range]

Back on topic now

I have a top view photo showing the labels

[henry218]

Paul,

 

have a look at Jantzen wax coils and C-Coils for the bass, as you want to lose as little as possible on the woofers as your horns are much more sensitive, i think the C-coil will do good for you for the woofers, and jantzen wax coils for your midrange, it has the transparency and warmth at the same time.

 

Air cored for bass is waste of coppers and too much of DCR.

[Newman]

  On 05/06/2014 at 12:25 AM, henry218 said:

Air cored for bass is waste of coppers and too much of DCR.

 

It's a tough compromise either way!

[Full Range]

  On 05/06/2014 at 12:25 AM, henry218 said:

Paul,

 

have a look at Jantzen wax coils and C-Coils for the bass, as you want to lose as little as possible on the woofers as your horns are much more sensitive, i think the C-coil will do good for you for the woofers, and jantzen wax coils for your midrange, it has the transparency and warmth at the same time.

 

Air cored for bass is waste of coppers and too much of DCR.

Henry

I am only changing out the two coils in the middle 0.2 mH & 0.3 mH respectively with Jentzen Wax flat wire coils I can't remember if one or both were a special order

They control the mid and tweeter

The coil for the bass was hand wound by Mike Lenehan and the bass is currently spot on

Bass circuit is in the right side of the photo

The other big coil also wound by Mike Lenehan feeds the mid range and works in conjunction with an 0.3 mH coil

The mid range and tweeter both have a dedicated attenuator for fine tuning

 

[henry218]

  On 05/06/2014 at 1:43 AM, Full Range said:

Henry

I am only changing out the two coils in the middle 0.2 mH & 0.3 mH respectively with Jentzen Wax flat wire coils I can't remember if one or both were a special order

They control the mid and tweeter

The coil for the bass was hand wound by Mike Lenehan and the bass is currently spot on

Bass circuit is in the right side of the photo

The other big coil also wound by Mike Lenehan feeds the mid range and works in conjunction with an 0.3 mH coil

The mid range and tweeter both have a dedicated attenuator for fine tuning

its actually more critical to change the air cored on the bass than wax coils for MT. whenever i put the ultra low dcr inductors to bass, the sound improves dramatically in terms of dynamics and the easyness of the bass presentation.

even though by the looks of the wires is big, prob 1-1.2mm but its still have higher dcr than c-coils which rated 0.07ohm for 3.9mH.

[Newman]

I have had success with 2.0 mm air coils on bass, but you have to do the sums and know the DCR to be sure it's going to work out.

 

[edit: okay I see that FR has custom jobbies, and they look darned fat anyway]

Edited June 5, 2014 by Newman

[Full Range]

  On 05/06/2014 at 1:50 AM, henry218 said:

its actually more critical to change the air cored on the bass than wax coils for MT. whenever i put the ultra low dcr inductors to bass, the sound improves dramatically in terms of dynamics and the easyness of the bass presentation.

even though by the looks of the wires is big, prob 1-1.2mm but its still have higher dcr than c-coils which rated 0.07ohm for 3.9mH.

Henry

Wire is 1.5 mm and each coil weighs close to 2.5 kg

[henry218]

  On 05/06/2014 at 2:09 AM, Full Range said:

Henry

Wire is 1.5 mm and each coil weighs close to 2.5 kg

cool, whats the DCR on that?

[Full Range]

  On 05/06/2014 at 2:18 AM, henry218 said:

cool, whats the DCR on that?

@greenwagon has all the specs I believe

I have had a good read of lots of Troels Gravasens knowledge

But here is an overview that I have followed - http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/coil.htm

[HdB]

Hi Paul,

   Could you elaborate about where you placed those 'air cell' plastic bags?

 

And/or, what is the purpose of the damping material around the port inlets (internal mouth)?

[Full Range]

  On 05/06/2014 at 3:52 AM, jrhill said:

Hi Paul,

Could you elaborate about where you placed those 'air cell' plastic bags?

And/or, what is the purpose of the damping material around the port inlets (internal mouth)?

The 3 bags are now 1 bag and it's placed inside each tube from the front

To my mind the tube entrance damping is to prevent a flute affect ( you know when one blows on a beer bottle it makes music )

The bass driver sits inside a triangular cabinet directly above the tube port entry and I thought the air movement may create a flute effect

It's easy experimental stuff that's reversible - but so far no bad effects have been observed

Edited June 5, 2014 by Full Range

[Green Wagon]

Gee, go away for a day to get some work done on other projects and it goes bezerk

 

It would be easier to relate the changes if you knew the schematic of these xovers.

I have given that to FR, so its up to him to post if he sees fit.

BUT, as he has said previously, it's a design that belongs to ALK Engineering, and as such probably isn't really meant for public display.

 

Kinda like being told to make a cake but not being allowed to know how much of what to put in it..

 

Suffice to say;

One large air wound inductor is in series with the bass driver. I don't know what the DCR is on it, but it would have to be below 0.5 ohm.

Certainly a galaxy better than the comparatively dinky little solen that was in there.

Other large air wound is a shunt inductor for the mid/tweeter section. (I'm calling it a waste, but its what FR was supplied long before I came along).

This has a resistor across it, one that was changed for a dueland.

 

the two wax coils coming, one is in series with the mid, other in series with the tweeter.

For these two, the DCR won't be much different to the solen litz inductors there now.

But, I have a gut feeling that they will make an audible improvement.

I wont say what I think they will do until after FR and I have had the chance to try them ourselves.

 

I put the bypass vishays across every single cap bank, purely because they were cheap.

Some of those cap banks are in series with drivers, most in shunts as filters.

 

the other dueland is across the mid attenuator transformer.

 

The path audio and mills resistors are all related to the tweeter attenuator transformer.

 

With the location of the resistors, I wasn't expecting a change. but there is. Go figure.

 

the issue of DCR in inductors, well, that really depends on where in the circuit it is.

Lower DCR inductors for bass series inductors is normally a good thing allowing the amplifier better control over the bass driver.

But its normally chosen that way because most bass drivers have lower sensitivity then the mids/tweeters.

So the more you get out of the bass, the less you have cut out of the mid/tweeter.

 

bypass or parallel inductors are sometimes better with higher DCR.

Look at some designs, they use a resistor in series with the inductor.

 

A lot of designs these days take into account the DCR of the components, not just there value.

 

FR's speakers are from another era where such systems and tools didn't exist, things were done very much as a way to make them work.

His and my dads JBL's are not fussy peaky things that must be fed unicorn tears to work.

Yes, these days we know more about component quality and their effect on the reproduced sound.

We also expect a lot more for our money.

 

There are things FR's speakers do that my speakers with diamond tweeters will never do.

And there are things that mine do that his won't.

Irrespective of whether I had his or mine, I would be be able to die a very happy man.......

[henry218]

im not judging anyone on how you choose components, as i can see that Paul is going all out with his crossover, so that the C-Coil on the BASS would be a logical choice.

 

and i agree with your post wholeheartedly

[damohpi]

are they only 1.5mm (14awg)? looking at them i would of thought at least 12awg? if 12awg dcr should be around 0.25 ohms using the chart that north creek publish for their inductors

 

http://northcreekmusic.com/NorthCreekCoilPrices.PDF

 

imho replacing the mostly average midrange autotransformer would be a nice upgrade... it made a huge difference on my old Klipschorns

 

There's a guy in Germany that makes some very nice double c-core autoformers. I did have a pair suitable for Klipsch networks but can't recall if I sold them or not, if interested I'll have a look around

 

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Autotransformer-passend-fur-Altec-and-other-Horn-Projekte-/221435457601?pt=Lautsprecher_Selbstbau&hash=item338e94f041

 

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=516061

Edited June 5, 2014 by damohpi

[Full Range]

  On 05/06/2014 at 5:49 AM, damohpi said:

are they only 1.5mm (14awg)? looking at them i would of thought at least 12awg? if 12awg dcr should be around 0.25 ohms using the chart that north creek publish for their inductors

 

http://northcreekmusic.com/NorthCreekCoilPrices.PDF

 

imho replacing the mostly average midrange autotransformer would be a nice upgrade... it made a huge difference on my old Klipschorns

 

There's a guy in Germany that makes some very nice double c-core autoformers. I did have a pair suitable for Klipsch networks but can't recall if I sold them or not, if interested I'll have a look around

 

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Autotransformer-passend-fur-Altec-and-other-Horn-Projekte-/221435457601?pt=Lautsprecher_Selbstbau&hash=item338e94f041

 

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=516061

 

Many thanks 

I will seriously look into those 

 

And you better go rummage in the cupboard to see if they are there

Edited June 5, 2014 by Full Range

[svenr]

@@Full Range - they way you mount the inductors (see photo in post #89) will cause strong electro-magnetic coupling between them (i.e. cross talk between individual channels).  Either space them much further apart, or change their axis orientation with respect to each other to minimise coupling.

[Full Range]

  On 05/06/2014 at 6:02 AM, svenr said:

@@Full Range - they way you mount the inductors (see photo in post #89) will cause strong electro-magnetic coupling between them (i.e. cross talk between individual channels).  Either space them much further apart, or change their axis orientation with respect to each other to minimise coupling.

 

The photo is deceptive the board is 450mm long by 360mm wide

Plenty of room 

[Newman]

I agree

[davewantsmoore]

I wouldn't assume that Sven has misunderstood the dimensions

[damohpi]

  On 05/06/2014 at 6:01 AM, Full Range said:

Many thanks 

I will seriously look into those 

 

And you better go rummage in the cupboard to see if they are there

 

well that wasn't so hard...  found them in the first place I looked :eek:  will PM you

[svenr]

Properly terminate the inputs and outputs of the crossover and measure the crosstalk.  You'd be surprised...

[Full Range]

  On 06/06/2014 at 3:45 AM, svenr said:

Properly terminate the inputs and outputs of the crossover and measure the crosstalk.  You'd be surprised...

This has all been covered on thread page 2 post 38 onwards

All Troels Gravesen's guidelines have been followed with regards to distances separating crossover components

[davewantsmoore]

  On 06/06/2014 at 4:16 AM, Full Range said:

All Troels Gravesen's guidelines

 

Unless you're referring to something I've not seen .... then T says that 2 (quite small) inductors need to be more than 20cm apart.   Yours aren't small.

 

 

The suggestion here is that you measure yourselves.

 

Please share your results.

[Newman]

Don't bother. There will definitely be some cross-talk but so what? Read post #95.