svenr Posted June 6, 2014 Posted June 6, 2014 Crosstalk between inductors is the single most important reason why listeners perceive the quality of active crossover systems with identical voltage transfer functions as higher. There has been ample research on this, and it is super-easy to fix.
davewantsmoore Posted June 6, 2014 Posted June 6, 2014 Don't bother. There will definitely be some cross-talk but so what? It's undesirable. Just tryin' to help people build better speakers. ... I'm Ron Burgundy ?!?!?!
damohpi Posted June 8, 2014 Posted June 8, 2014 Paul, thanks for having me over for a listen to your system and for your outstanding hospitality, pizza and great coffee. Lovely sounding speakers, very balanced top to bottom, seamless crossover integration, nice bass extension and impact. They bring back fond memories of my old Klipschorns which sounded very similar in scale, dynamics. Would love to have another listen when you get the new autoformers and inductors wired up. 2
Full Range Posted June 8, 2014 Author Posted June 8, 2014 Paul, thanks for having me over for a listen to your system and for your outstanding hospitality, pizza and great coffee. Lovely sounding speakers, very balanced top to bottom, seamless crossover integration, nice bass extension and impact. They bring back fond memories of my old Klipschorns which sounded very similar in scale, dynamics. Would love to have another listen when you get the new autoformers and inductors wired up. The pleasure was all mine Damo Thanks for taking the time to post a short review. It was great having a fresh but experienced pair of ears to critique my handy work, I am glad you weren't disappointed Keep up with thread updates and when the changes are complete you can come back for a second helping
Full Range Posted June 12, 2014 Author Posted June 12, 2014 Today I have started to make the box frames for the crossovers Although I specified the utilitarian / industrial look when they were made, and I like that look very much - they do however need a frame and other finishing touches to give them a little WAF approval factor Just because they look utilitarian / industrial, It doesn't mean they lack in the design structure and parts used department One deciding factor to layout & construct this crossover set in a single board is because they just won't fit inside the reduced cabinet space ( the mid driver cabinet space is non existent ) even the professionally made units won't fit Why did I choose a box frame - because it matches the frame type and style of my tube amps Progress so far of the box frame Cut timber pieces Then glue the corners and secure with a framers belt clamp - Corner braces will be added in due course 2
Green Wagon Posted June 18, 2014 Posted June 18, 2014 (edited) I went and had a look at these frames today. In real life, they make the crossovers look soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo sexy. (Yes seriously that many 'O's are called for) Once hes Oiled/varnished/painted them, they will be beyond porn. Photos just do not do them justice. We may (or may not) have done something else today. It may (or may not) have made a difference. I may (or may not have) started to tear up. FR may (or may not have) also been choking up a little. I may (or may not have) litereraly jumped a foot several times at the starting minute of one track. Only FR and I will know (or may not know) for sure. FR may (or may not) have decided to sell these speakers. He may (or may not) have decided to buy an old iPoo with 'beatoffs by mr drew' earplugs. At this point, I will (or won't) stop stirring the chamber pot, and let whatever floaters surface as they see fit. FR may (or may not) decide to make a post himself. *(Refer hitchhikers guide to the galaxy - introduction of 'The Question' to Deep Thought) EDIT, daym, forgot to mention the pizza we may (or may not) have eaten. It might have been the best pizza ever....... washed down by even more superb coffee. So many things in my life are obviously missing....... Edited June 18, 2014 by green wagon 2
Full Range Posted June 23, 2014 Author Posted June 23, 2014 (edited) The latest update 1) Some upgrades have been installed 2) The box frames are completed 3) Crossovers have been fitted to frames Firstly a big thanks to @Greenwagon for his time and soldering skills and @@damohpi for selling me his dual core Autoformers The Jentzen flat wire wax inductor coils have replaced the Solis Litz coils And the standard Auto transformers were removed and replaced by fitting high quality Dual core Autoformers with 15 attenuation steps @ 1 db increments in there place These will be the last of the revisions or upgrades that will be done to these crossovers as I'm liking what I'm hearing Some photos - Frames have also been completed and the component board fitted Edited June 24, 2014 by Full Range 5
Newman Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 Works of art those crossovers, should be framed. Didn't you see the photos? 'Framed' is exactly what they now are. :nana 2
Telecine Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 They look great Paul. I am looking forward to hearing them in action. 1
sootshe Posted June 23, 2014 Posted June 23, 2014 are they only 1.5mm (14awg)? looking at them i would of thought at least 12awg? if 12awg dcr should be around 0.25 ohms using the chart that north creek publish for their inductors http://northcreekmusic.com/NorthCreekCoilPrices.PDF imho replacing the mostly average midrange autotransformer would be a nice upgrade... it made a huge difference on my old Klipschorns There's a guy in Germany that makes some very nice double c-core autoformers. I did have a pair suitable for Klipsch networks but can't recall if I sold them or not, if interested I'll have a look around http://www.ebay.de/itm/Autotransformer-passend-fur-Altec-and-other-Horn-Projekte-/221435457601?pt=Lautsprecher_Selbstbau&hash=item338e94f041 http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=516061 They are 10 gauge - not sure of the wire diameter. Looks great Paul. 1
Malcolm Posted June 24, 2014 Posted June 24, 2014 I don't think that canon lense cap us going to help :-)
Full Range Posted June 24, 2014 Author Posted June 24, 2014 (edited) Works of art those crossovers, should be framed. The build has come together we'll - although it was a bit ugly at the beginning Didn't you see the photos? 'Framed' is exactly what they now are. :nanaI like your cheeky reply They look great Paul. I am looking forward to hearing them in action.I will contact you when the TT is up and running so you can also do a comparison with your Garrard 401They are 10 gauge - not sure of the wire diameter. Looks great Paul. Give me a heads up when you are visiting Brisbane again John and call in for a reacquaintance with the " NEW" mods if you have the time Edit - as for the wire thickness, I had the time to measure with a Digital calliper and it averages at 3mm So I apologise for my earlier entry of 1.5 mm ( sorry ) I don't think that canon lense cap us going to help :-)It's for perspective as I was getting some flack about coil distances and crosstalk In any case I have one word if we experience any of that ( which we haven't as yet ) that word is MUMetal Cheers for the likes to all Edited July 17, 2014 by Full Range 2
Green Wagon Posted June 24, 2014 Posted June 24, 2014 FR, you are more than welcome. Your journey provided an opportunity to discover for myself just what some things are capable of. I don't want to stir the pot (or do I ?) but those wax foils really are the finishing touch. Each time we made a change, I didn't think it could get better. Every time I was proven wrong. Some changes were small, some huge, but every one was a step foward. Your speakers make me question mine. Must not change speakers must not change speakers must not change speakers. I wonder, was that 'canon' there last time I visited ? Would explain the feeling of being hit with a brick wall on that 'new favorite track' of yours oh those frames. mmmmm. Oil was the right choice. maybe a smoked perspex cover ? as for the end of mods, yeah, ok. . . . 2
Full Range Posted June 24, 2014 Author Posted June 24, 2014 (edited) FR, you are more than welcome. Your journey provided an opportunity to discover for myself just what some things are capable of. I don't want to stir the pot (or do I ?) but those wax foils really are the finishing touch. Each time we made a change, I didn't think it could get better. Every time I was proven wrong. Some changes were small, some huge, but every one was a step foward. Your speakers make me question mine. Must not change speakers must not change speakers must not change speakers. I wonder, was that 'canon' there last time I visited ? Would explain the feeling of being hit with a brick wall on that 'new favorite track' of yours oh those frames. mmmmm. Oil was the right choice. maybe a smoked perspex cover ? as for the end of mods, yeah, ok. . . . Your welcome that I inspired you to more discovery All I did was follow a dream and nursed it into fruition, and you helped me choose diamonds from chaff in parts selection keeping me within $$ budget As to the cannon lens - I see where the twist is in your comment The track is - Stravinsky's - The Firebird Suite - Infernal Dance (Excerpt) And this version is from the McIntosh Audiophile Test Reference CD This track physically knocks you off your feet if it's just loud enough - we'll it does when played through these speakers So if your not already seated you will end up on youre ass from the sound wave produced Edited June 24, 2014 by Full Range 1
HdB Posted June 24, 2014 Posted June 24, 2014 Paul, Just came late to your thread ... I'd suggest for your 'next ones' you can make those chokes much closer together if they're mounted at right angles to each other (the 3 axis) so low reactance between them - don't think any audible difference with the shortening of the Xover wires tho .... Also, for easier winding of inductors, 3 parallel wires is SO much easier - so for a #12 wire, use 3 x #15 (or #16, readily available) for same impedance but much better 'packing factor' and use the Neville Theile inductor 'stack ratio' (AES 1969) - it makes quite a difference, particularly with the transients and hf. Very nicely built - looks very neat 2
Full Range Posted June 25, 2014 Author Posted June 25, 2014 (edited) Paul, Just came late to your thread ... I'd suggest for your 'next ones' you can make those chokes much closer together if they're mounted at right angles to each other (the 3 axis) so low reactance between them - don't think any audible difference with the shortening of the Xover wires tho .... Also, for easier winding of inductors, 3 parallel wires is SO much easier - so for a #12 wire, use 3 x #15 (or #16, readily available) for same impedance but much better 'packing factor' and use the Neville Theile inductor 'stack ratio' (AES 1969) - it makes quite a difference, particularly with the transients and hf. Very nicely built - looks very neat Thanks but the credit should go to another - all the crossover work was performed by SNA member @GreenwagonWhen I purchased the speakers I had some unused crossover parts that came with them as an upgrade What @Greenwagin did was to strip and salvage parts from the working crossovers then combine parts at hand and purchase extra capacitors to make the crossovers you have seen so far Along the way I have made revisions with resistors ect However I don't think there will be another crossover build anytime soon Edited June 25, 2014 by Full Range
Full Range Posted July 10, 2014 Author Posted July 10, 2014 Update with some photo art from different angles of the current position of the crossovers A couple of low light photos Some photos from a height above the speakers And a few more just for the sake of it 4
Newman Posted July 10, 2014 Posted July 10, 2014 Hard to believe it's just a crossover, more like an electronic work of art! 1
Onbagz Posted July 10, 2014 Posted July 10, 2014 The crossover looks fantastic. The finish is fantastic Sent from my iPhone 5. 1
Telecine Posted July 12, 2014 Posted July 12, 2014 (edited) I had the pleasure of visiting Paul today to hear these speakers. Firstly, thanks for the hospitality and the great coffee. These are even more physically impressive in the flesh. The finish is superb and those crossovers are a work of art. Paul's room is large with a vaulted ceiling. This no doubt aids in extracting the best from these speakers. A wide variety of music was played on a variety of equipment, both solid state and valve-based. The speakers handled everything played with aplomb. These speakers have an effortless and totally non-fatiguing presentation. The sound is very well integrated from top to bottom. They can play Rock, Jazz and Classical music with equal ease. I was particularly impressed with how well they handled orchestral crescendos, they never lost their composure, nor failed to deliver a musically satisfying experience. The timbre and tone of instruments was rendered realistically, preserving the harmonic structure of the music. Bass output was prodigious and impactful. There was no one note bass in evidence here. Voices were well placed in the soundstage and uncoloured with no annoying artefacts or quirks. Smooth is the word that I would use to describe the presentation. Massed choral voices had the scale and sound stage to render them realistic, with sweetly reproduced high notes. Highs had the sparkle and decay that balances out the music and creates that airy sound. All in all, these are very musically satisfying speakers that anyone who could accommodate them would be proud to own. It was a privilege to hear them in action. The attention to detail in putting that crossover together deserves special mention and demonstrates what can be achieved with good skills and experience, together with a preparedness to experiment and tune the sound to your own preferences. Edited July 12, 2014 by Telecine 7
Full Range Posted July 13, 2014 Author Posted July 13, 2014 I had the pleasure of visiting Paul today to hear these speakers. Firstly, thanks for the hospitality and the great coffee. These are even more physically impressive in the flesh. The finish is superb and those crossovers are a work of art. Paul's room is large with a vaulted ceiling. This no doubt aids in extracting the best from these speakers. A wide variety of music was played on a variety of equipment, both solid state and valve-based. The speakers handled everything played with aplomb. These speakers have an effortless and totally non-fatiguing presentation. The sound is very well integrated from top to bottom. They can play Rock, Jazz and Classical music with equal ease. I was particularly impressed with how well they handled orchestral crescendos, they never lost their composure, nor failed to deliver a musically satisfying experience. The timbre and tone of instruments was rendered realistically, preserving the harmonic structure of the music. Bass output was prodigious and impactful. There was no one note bass in evidence here. Voices were well placed in the soundstage and uncoloured with no annoying artefacts or quirks. Smooth is the word that I would use to describe the presentation. Massed choral voices had the scale and sound stage to render them realistic, with sweetly reproduced high notes. Highs had the sparkle and decay that balances out the music and creates that airy sound. All in all, these are very musically satisfying speakers that anyone who could accommodate them would be proud to own. It was a privilege to hear them in action. The attention to detail in putting that crossover together deserves special mention and demonstrates what can be achieved with good skills and experience, together with a preparedness to experiment and tune the sound to your own preferences. It was a pleasure having you over as a guest with a good ear for music @@Telecine and I had a very nice morning listening to music and talking about the next project ( finishing the Garrard 401) It appears that @@Telecine liked the system more than he made out on the day Thanks for taking the time to write and post an honest review and personal opinion When the Garrard is up and running I will invite you back so we can compare same model TTs 1
Telecine Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 My pleasure Paul. I did like them very much. Keen to have another listen when you have the Garrard up and running.
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