houdinifangs Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 Awesome stuff Paul. I should really try to get up to Brisvegas again with a soul destroyer LP
Full Range Posted April 30, 2015 Author Posted April 30, 2015 On 30/04/2015 at 6:58 AM, houdinifangs said: Awesome stuff Paul. I should really try to get up to Brisvegas again with a soul destroyer LP @@houdinifangs You were supposed to visit me when you came up for the Gold Coast marathon What happened with that plan mate ? Did you make it or got to busy and canceled the trip
Green Wagon Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 On 30/04/2015 at 6:48 AM, Full Range said: Hi folks I have decided to change over the Sonicap capacitors and replace them with Jentzen Superior Z caps with a slightly lower value to trial a hunch I have - if the lower value does not work, all that's needed is to add a capacitor to equal the current value In this custom crossover build , the Sonicaps feed the mid and tweeter. So in effect their about the most critical caps in the whole xover. ( I know I know ) This is fine tuning to the ninth degree but that's the audiophiles lot in life I have placed an order for a set to be made for me by Jentzen from Speaker Bug - http://speakerbug.com.au , as I have been looked after by them for all my other build parts purchases during the build I'd like put my 2 cents in if I may The current sonicaps total 38uf (20+18 in parallel). Jantzen don't have a 20uf Superior cap, so were going to try a pair of 18s that I don't currently stock. (Slowly I'm expanding the range) That'll be 36uf total, not a big difference, probably around 25hz if that over the current xover point (Currently 500hz, so not a big difference). And if that 25hz is an issue we have the option of adding a variety of smaller values to bump it back up to the original 38uf. Theoretically from what I've read, having 2x same value is preferred to 2x differing values. Not exactly sure why. Maybe something to do with balanced loading through the caps I'm guessing? Going by Tony Gee's cap tests, just the change to the Supremes should be a worthwhile improvement. So, the 18's aren't actually being made, there just being shipped from stock. I've also ordered a few spares to add to the site. Paul, If your speakers get any better, you will need a shotgun to make people leave you alone.......... I'm constantly flabbergasted at the improvements you keep managing to achieve. 3
Full Range Posted April 30, 2015 Author Posted April 30, 2015 At the time of the crossover build Nigel and I talked about using the Jentzen Superior Z caps instead of the Sonicaps but the cost to include them was taking me well over a sensible budget I already had the Sonicaps so it was an easy decision to make at the time and include them in the build Now that I have some funds again I have decided to go the way I would have wanted to build the crossovers, not that the Sonicaps haven't performed well - they have actualy performed beautifully, It's more the " what if " that was nigling at me Such is the lot of an Audiophile 1
waricle Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 Wow Paul, what a fabulous enterprise, all the elements that bring together the different aspects a a brilliant diy sound system!!! I can only hope one day to be fortunate enough to hear it! Amazing!! 1
Full Range Posted April 30, 2015 Author Posted April 30, 2015 I should also mention that we will take some measurements before and after the capacitor change I know everyone has been asking for them We will be using a Dayton umm-6, a USB measurement microphone Just plugs it into a laptop and run the software (rew)... No promises @@waricle I will see what I can do, however if you have superior measuring equipment you could be moved up the ladder 1
steve u Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 I'm very interested in this exercise Paul. I can bring coffee beans.
Green Wagon Posted April 30, 2015 Posted April 30, 2015 I doubt the before and after caps measurements will show anything. But I'm curious to see the graphs myself. I just gotta have a play with the new version of REW to try and learn that a bit as well...
Full Range Posted April 30, 2015 Author Posted April 30, 2015 On 30/04/2015 at 12:32 PM, steve u said: I'm very interested in this exercise Paul. I can bring coffee beans. It would be interesting to compare the measurements of your system with my system as the same measurement equipment will be used Will be in contact @@steve u closer to the time we schedule the installation 1
houdinifangs Posted May 1, 2015 Posted May 1, 2015 On 30/04/2015 at 7:27 AM, Full Range said: @@houdinifangs You were supposed to visit me when you came up for the Gold Coast marathon What happened with that plan mate ? Did you make it or got to busy and canceled the trip Didn't make that mara...did Melbourne instead...might need to plan a HiFi mara in QLD?
Full Range Posted May 15, 2015 Author Posted May 15, 2015 (edited) An update The ordered Jantzen capacitors landed a few days ago and they were fitted today, Huge thanks go out to Nigel & speaker bug You will all need to wait for listening impressions as time got away from us and will need to wait another day or two @greenwagon has performed some measurement sweeps and will post any graphs he has when he has time available I have taken some photos of the change over operation We also added new Vishay MKP1837 / 0,01uF MKP 100VDC - 1% tolerance This photo shows the size difference between the Sonicap and the Jantzen Z caps And some more after they were fitted -I must say it's a neat job And a couple of photos of the measurement equipment and microphone Edited May 15, 2015 by Full Range 4
Green Wagon Posted May 15, 2015 Posted May 15, 2015 Thank you Paul God your coffee is addictive..... It was an interesting day for both of us. Ran something like 20 sweeps, didn't record some of them as they were just, 'hey lets try this', sort of deal. We did record I think something like a dozen sweeps. some are presented below. The first sweep is Pauls preferred settings as I walked in. And I agree, it has the best overall presentation. We upped the mid and tweeter levels just to try it, and in someways it sounded better, in others not so great, not bad, just not as good as it could be. The bass near field, well I've no idea where to measure that with his speakers. We tried various positions for the mic. Not one made any difference, so the one here is in the middle of the bass horn cabinet, 20mm from its front 'edge'. (Pauls last pic) I found the comparison with the listening position interesting. Looks like a decent plot to me. But I'm learning so if anyone can shed their thoughts on it, please do, but be nice, I've got training wheels on The sweep pre and post capacitor change (not really shown), supposedly should push the mid section up another 25 hertz. But I can't see any difference at all. ~ 500hz. Some of the measurements are a bit strange, like the spike at 5khz. I suspect it might be a combination of mic position and crossover design. But I'd like to spend another day there playing with ideas and seeing where they lead. (sweep of mid on its own and tweeter on its own would prob be a good start). Maybe raising the crossover point for the tweeter (~6khz) may help to flatten it out a bit. The way the crossover is designed, the caps we changed are in series with both the mid and tweeter. The sonic difference with the change of caps though. Wow. The caps still need to break in, But its like the system can reveal 4 more layers of detail. The impact of bass has improved several fold, the ringing on instruments (when its supposed to be there) has grown beyond the confines of the walls. Theres more detail but a little harshness, I believe that harshness will disappear as the caps break in. Yeah yeah, break in shmeak in, snake oil blah blah blah. I am a skeptic, but, It is something I have heard time and time again. Why does it happen ? Porked if I know, But I've heard the phenomenon in too many systems now to ignore it as placebo. Meh, thats all I can think of to add for now.
Newman Posted May 15, 2015 Posted May 15, 2015 The spike at 5k might be the reflection off the top of the cabinet from the tweeter => path difference causing peak/troughs. Path difference would be about right for this with a 1m measurement.
Green Wagon Posted May 15, 2015 Posted May 15, 2015 Ta Newman. I started with the mic on axis with the mid and got some strange treble sweeps that I didn't think was right. big peaks and dips. Looking at the physical position, it looked like the mic could be partially 'blocked' from seeing the tweeter cleanly. So moved the mic up higher, in line with the top of the mid enclosure and that seemed to help smooth it out a fair bit. Listening, I don't believe that massive 5k peak is really there. thats also born out by the mic'd listening position sweep ? So much to learn, so little time.
Full Range Posted May 16, 2015 Author Posted May 16, 2015 It was an interesting day experimenting about with microphone test sweeps The system was left on playing music till late last night and turned on again this morning to warm up for a proper listening and attenuation tweaking session later on today @@Green Wagon and I spoke about the 5k dip and took on board @@Newman 's suggestion and have put it down to cabinet or baffle deflection Next time we measure we will take that into account
davewantsmoore Posted May 16, 2015 Posted May 16, 2015 You can confirm that it is diffraction, by moving the microphone. The peak will change shape / position.
Full Range Posted May 19, 2015 Author Posted May 19, 2015 I have had two good listening sessions since the Jantzen capacitor change However about 40 hours of music has gone through the system to settle in the new capasitors Fortunately the crossovers are fitted with attenuation in the mid range and tweeter section so I can tweak the db output to suit my room acoustics ect So on to a description of my listening experience Finally attenuation set on - Tweet on -5 db - Midrange - 11 db ( it sounds nice from 9 db to 12 db ) These atenuator settings have just the right and pleasing mix I like best for the room the system is set up in, but I change them to suit the material I am playing Bass - Apart from the defined sound that we can hear - The bass presentation is fast and defined and also fuller longer notes at the same time, Bass also acts like a vibrating wave machine, the sound waves just bore into the body , furniture and walls ect Mid Range - This section has had the biggest perceptible change The soundstage is more expanded and I explain it in this way - Notes start sharply and finish when the sound wave energy is depleted - drums, triangles , guitar strings, violin, piano, horns, breaking glass sounds ect - the notes just hang there if they are in the recording Tweeter - Top end at first was not as clinical as before but as the caps have settled in the top end is now very sharp and subtly more musical kinda fuller but very sharp at the same time ( hard to find a word of explanation for it ) If one could see the sound waves you could describe them as hugging the listener That's al I have in my report as I am listening and describing my impressions for you as I listen in real time 1
Newman Posted May 19, 2015 Posted May 19, 2015 On 16/05/2015 at 12:17 AM, Full Range said: @@Green Wagon and I spoke about the 5k dip and took on board @@Newman 's suggestion and have put it down to cabinet or baffle deflection Next time we measure we will take that into account Or, maybe stop it at source with an acoustic pillow on top of the midrange cabinet.... not just for measurement, but for listening too.
Full Range Posted July 18, 2015 Author Posted July 18, 2015 Today I entertained a visitor for a good part of the day to review my system The visitor was Keith Eichmann of KLE cables -- http://kleinnovations.com We tried a set of his interconnects and SPDIF cable on my system to compare Keith has a great ear for detail and was very forthcoming in his opinion In the end we coined a new phrase to sum up everything we heard We both agreed that the system had a Superior Layered Harmonic Resolution- A new term to describe realness in audio Soon I will have on loan a Klein DAC for review and I will post my assessment when I have had a few listening sessions 3
Guest Muon Posted September 9, 2015 Posted September 9, 2015 I visited Paul yesterday. This is what i mentioned elsewhere here: Paul is a great host, he invited me in for a coffee But I also got a chance to hear his system and check it out in person. What can I say? It's lovely! the scale and presence is great, in fact i couldn't fault it as everything sounded lovely...and those speakers :love Oh, and the coffee was to die for Just to add to things on his system, It was interesting that the sound was pretty much the same where ever I was in the room, very nice it was regardless of where positioned... this is something I'm not used to and am used to a defined sweet spot...but this aspect of Pauls' system is very nice! Tonally it was very good also, and played all music types in a very nice way, It didn't seem to favor any one type and played it all excellently music was nicely layered and nothing i heard was at all objectionable, if there was any faults it was in the recordings. I did ogle that Tangential tonearm on the Garrard for a while, lovely engineering...or at least to my novice eye they look that way to me Thanks again for having me over, and allowing me to experience ya' system, Paul. I think you have spoiled my future coffee experience for some time, as well
steve u Posted September 9, 2015 Posted September 9, 2015 Agree with everything you said @ , Paul's system draws you in and it is easy to lose track of time listening to tunes drinking coffee and sampling his home baked range of cookies.... 1
davewantsmoore Posted September 9, 2015 Posted September 9, 2015 Question about the graphs from before. When you measure the "left speaker" (eg. 1m, axis centre of left mid). Do you have the right speaker disconnected? Or are both speaker producing sound?
Full Range Posted September 9, 2015 Author Posted September 9, 2015 On 09/09/2015 at 11:43 PM, davewantsmoore said: Question about the graphs from before. When you measure the "left speaker" (eg. 1m, axis centre of left mid). Do you have the right speaker disconnected? Or are both speaker producing sound? It was a while ago but I'm pretty sure @@Green Wagon had me disconnect the speaker that was not being tested 1
Happy Posted September 10, 2015 Posted September 10, 2015 Way cool thread. My first encounter with a stacked pair of La Scalas were less than positive but I'm sure yours would sound nothing like it. And I thought I was mad going active multi amping
Full Range Posted September 10, 2015 Author Posted September 10, 2015 On 10/09/2015 at 12:17 AM, davidro said: Way cool thread. My first encounter with a stacked pair of La Scalas were less than positive but I'm sure yours would sound nothing like it. And I thought I was mad going active multi amping They only part that is original Klipsch LaScala in this build is the bass box and even that has been optimised with double thickness walls And no you're not going mad, you do what's needed to please your body and soul Keep it up
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