crispy98007 Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 Hi, I'm new to this forum and wanted to post an opinion on this. They won't allow it until I'm verified as being somewhat genuine and not of extraterrestrial origin. I have been in the hifi industry for 30+ years, and have seen countless bad products come and go, as well as many good or even excellent ones. New models are in NO WAY guaranteed to be better than the old, in fact I've seen countless situations where new models are far worse than their predecessors. R2R DACs have ALWAYS audibly outperformed Delta Sigmas in every way. R2Rs are smooth, good high frequency detail but never harsh. Most importantly they IMAGE well and have very good bass response. They sound more REAL. Every Delta Sigma player I've heard to date is flat-sounding (no 3D imaging), accentuated in the treble (some, not all), but TERRIBLE low freqency response (these are my listening tests only, I've heard just about everything there is on the market today, from cheap Sony players to 6 figure DCS rigs. The Esoteric P-01/D-01/G-0Rb stack is truly holographic and ventriloquist-like...I have only 2 speakers and sometime you swear some details are coming from BEHIND you...now THAT is IMAGING. The hall reverberations on good recordings are jaw-dropping. Given a specific budget and space, a 2 channel system will VASTLY outperform any (5.1, 7.2, 13.4 lol) surround system (HD, DTS Master etc.) If they stop making ladder (R2R) DACs it will be a truly sad day in audio. DS is far cheaper to make, and has as good or maybe even better specs on paper, especially low-level linearity. But the sound tells me otherwise. Really good R2Rs must be laser trimmed individually, adding to their cost, whereas DS DACs have inherently fewer low level conversion errors, lowering the cost and upping the specs. 8 PCM 1704s in parallel per channel (reducing low-level errors, and for every doubling of DAC chips the noise floor drops 6dB), hand trimmed and closely matched, is what's inside the D-01 Esoteric mono D/A converter, and I can flat out tell you, without a hint of a doubt (especially since the VU upgrade and the Rubidium clock) it is EXPONENTIALLY BETTER than ANYTHING out there. I religiously attend hifi shows including CES, NAMM, the Munich show, and various others, some good, some not so good. Heck, even the old sub-$1000 R2R Rotel CD players sounded pretty decent... In a nutshell, DS dacs are cheap to make, look good on paper, but sound cold, brittle and harsh with no bass (I'm talking real bass, sub 30Hz). R2Rs are far more expensive to make, have to be hand trimmed by laser, but if someone can show me a better sounding DAC, I'll eat my shorts. Perhaps I've stirred up controversy, but here is my post for moderator approval. BTW I live in the United States. Cheers to all and thanks for reading. Chris 5
Audionutz Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 Hi Chris and welcome ! I'm sure there will be replies on this topic, and I think you'll find if you search the forum, there have been many (some heated ) discussions on it. Welcome again. Cheers 'Nutz
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted June 30, 2014 Volunteer Posted June 30, 2014 Welcome to the forum, Chris I'm sure you will get some interesting responses to your post
THOMO Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 Just go and listen to an Accuphase DP720. Enough to bust this myth. 1
davewantsmoore Posted July 1, 2014 Posted July 1, 2014 Perhaps I've stirred up controversy Not really, but it's hard to generalise about it when the circuit you put the chips in makes such a difference Such overt dogmatism (hey!? do as I say, not as I do) also makes it hard for anyone who now posts that their listening test showed 'no difference' to not look like their ears are painted on, and their speakers were found at the local dump Yep. I've heard quite a few flat sounding SD converters.
kunalraiker Posted July 1, 2014 Posted July 1, 2014 I have both R2R and DS, PCM1904 and ES9018. I used to really love my Audio GD PCM 1904 DAC until I both the Hifiman HM901 - The details in the music went through the roof and there was no sacrifice in the warmth.I'am not sure if it was the implementation of the DAC chip that made the difference but I have become a fan of Sabre DACs 2
ArthurDent Posted July 1, 2014 Posted July 1, 2014 What an odd first post. Agenda much? At least he's using a decent R2R DAC and where's George, shouldn't he be out of the sin bin by now 1
hochopeper Posted July 1, 2014 Posted July 1, 2014 At least he's using a decent R2R DAC and where's George, shouldn't he be out of the sin bin by now I think he might have taken his toys and moved on from SNA.
ArthurDent Posted July 1, 2014 Posted July 1, 2014 I think he might have taken his toys and moved on from SNA. He'll be back. Much bigger pond over at diyAudio
Guest Posted July 1, 2014 Posted July 1, 2014 At least he's using a decent R2R DAC and where's George, shouldn't he be out of the sin bin by now Welcome to StereoNET. Moving this to The Great Debate where it is more appropriate. The New Member forum is for introductions and should be a welcoming environment, not to be overwhelmimg with DAC debates. 4
TMM Posted July 1, 2014 Posted July 1, 2014 (edited) To say that one DAC topology has a consistently different sound character to another is absolute nonsense. Audio is so low frequency in the scheme of things that both topologies can be engineered to the point of audible (inaudible?) transparency. The errors in R-2R DACs are not exactly random, nor confined to transitions of LSBs, so putting a number of them in parallel won't eliminate errors completely. I'll take a high performing Delta-sigma DAC over a low performing R-2R any day, just as i would take a high performing R-2R over a low performing Delta-sigma. Just my 2c. Edited July 1, 2014 by TMM 2
Audiobugged Posted July 1, 2014 Posted July 1, 2014 R2R DACs have ALWAYS audibly outperformed Delta Sigmas in every way. R2Rs are smooth, good high frequency detail but never harsh. Most importantly they IMAGE well and have very good bass response. They sound more REAL. Every Delta Sigma player I've heard to date is flat-sounding (no 3D imaging), accentuated in the treble (some, not all), but TERRIBLE low freqency response (these are my listening tests only, I've heard just about everything there is on the market today, from cheap Sony players to 6 figure DCS rigs. The Esoteric P-01/D-01/G-0Rb stack is truly holographic and ventriloquist-like...I have only 2 speakers and sometime you swear some details are coming from BEHIND you...now THAT is IMAGING. The hall reverberations on good recordings are jaw-dropping. Given a specific budget and space, a 2 channel system will VASTLY outperform any (5.1, 7.2, 13.4 lol) surround system (HD, DTS Master etc.) If they stop making ladder (R2R) DACs it will be a truly sad day in audio. DS is far cheaper to make, and has as good or maybe even better specs on paper, especially low-level linearity. But the sound tells me otherwise. Really good R2Rs must be laser trimmed individually, adding to their cost, whereas DS DACs have inherently fewer low level conversion errors, lowering the cost and upping the specs. 8 PCM 1704s in parallel per channel (reducing low-level errors, and for every doubling of DAC chips the noise floor drops 6dB), hand trimmed and closely matched, is what's inside the D-01 Esoteric mono D/A converter, and I can flat out tell you, without a hint of a doubt (especially since the VU upgrade and the Rubidium clock) it is EXPONENTIALLY BETTER than ANYTHING out there. I religiously attend hifi shows including CES, NAMM, the Munich show, and various others, some good, some not so good. Heck, even the old sub-$1000 R2R Rotel CD players sounded pretty decent... In a nutshell, DS dacs are cheap to make, look good on paper, but sound cold, brittle and harsh with no bass (I'm talking real bass, sub 30Hz). R2Rs are far more expensive to make, have to be hand trimmed by laser, but if someone can show me a better sounding DAC, I'll eat my shorts. Perhaps I've stirred up controversy, but here is my post for moderator approval. BTW I live in the United States. Cheers to all and thanks for reading. Chris Yer on the right track mate! Esoteric used to build pretty good R2R dacs but unfortunately seem to have moved to DS now... But yer in luck. I can flat out tell you, without a hint of a doubt that Audio-gd ref or master series r2r dacs have pushed the boundaries onwards. They are now EXPONENTIALLY BETTER than ANYTHING out there, including that vintage Esoteric you seem so enamored with. Most fortuitously, I just happen to have a spare top of the line Audio-gd ref dac, and also am on a lookout for vintage dacs with nifty design or case-work so happy to consider if yer looking to trade-up your p01-d01 thingy. Cheers and you can thank me later. AB 1
lemnoc Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 (edited) What an odd first post. Agenda much? maybe he's trying to clear out his old stock of ladder dacs LOL Edited August 22, 2014 by lemnoc 1
Nada Posted August 22, 2014 Posted August 22, 2014 (edited) youse guys are all paranoid - better go easy on the hydro there boys until you try the classic esoteric combo for yourself in your home system your in no position to make a judgement lucky for you the classic combo has just come up on audiogone at a bargain price so get in quick Esoteric 01 Digital Playback System Perhaps the best-sounding disc playback system of all time. Edited August 22, 2014 by Nada 1
-Prince- Posted February 3 Posted February 3 Hi Guys, Can any help me with your best R2R dac you have used in your system? @THOMO is Accuphase DP720 R2R type? As I can't afford to buy or demo mate.
reignofchaos Posted February 12 Posted February 12 There are great delta sigma dacs and there are great r2r dacs. The vice versa applies too and there are more bad delta sigma dacs than bad r2r dacs as the latter are far fewer in number. Have both and depending on how they are used, either can be great! My favorite right now is using hqplayer to upsample to 1 bit DSD 512 and feeding a T+A DAC 200 in nos mode. This beats any r2r I've heard so far.
MattyW Posted February 19 Posted February 19 AudioGD R7HE MK2 + LHY OCK-2 master clock. Just stunning and the clock input brings a sense of space that is missing using the internal clock by comparison.
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