RRP price list. How much is that.........?

[GregWormald]

Anecdotal evidence:

I'm on a pension as my income, self-funded through careful saving (no government assistance) and I drive a better car than my three latest retailers do.

[Rori]

  On 21/03/2022 at 6:49 AM, GregWormald said:

Anecdotal evidence:

I'm on a pension as my income, self-funded through careful saving (no government assistance) and I drive a better car than my three latest retailers do.

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That has nothing to do with anything.

[Rori]

So, firstly I don't have any issues with dealers. I just don't think they're all angels and I also don't think they're all doing it that tough. Obviously in any business, how you run it is most important and some dealers will actually be struggling, again like in any business, not just audio.

 

I get the feeling on Stereonet though, you can't possibly think the dealers are doing good and they all must be struggling to make ends meet. As soon as you do think or question this, you get these ridiculous replies from other do gooders protecting dealers. I just don't get it, we as customers have to stick together.

 

I do know it is product dependant, however I think if you average out all products margins across the board, you will see a very healthy margin for most dealers. Some products may give only 10% which the dealer wouldn't want to discount, I get it and everyone in business needs to make a dollar. What I don't like is when the RRP is waaaaaaayyy above the actual cost of the product. If you're smart, you will bargain the dealer down, if you're not or haven't been told about the unwritten rule, the dealer will blink dollar signs as he sells something at full price with 50% to 80% profit. This unwritten rule that most products should be bargained down is what I don't like. It is taking the piss plain and simple.

 

If it was that tough in this game and most dealers were struggling, they'd be more than happy to show their books as proof right before they go under. With my eyes open, I just don't see this happening. Take Covid for example where a LOT of small businesses went under, I haven't heard of an audio business copping the same fate yet. If there is 1 or 2, still not in the same league as other retail sector's.

[rantan]

  On 28/03/2022 at 6:22 AM, Rori said:

What I don't like is when the RRP is waaaaaaayyy above the actual cost of the product.

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Do you mean like an iPhone,which costs $30 to make and sells for >$2K or Bunnings selling four sheets of colourbond for a kids sandpit which costs them $10 and they sell for $300?

[Rori]

  On 28/03/2022 at 6:28 AM, rantan said:

 

Do you mean like an iPhone,which costs $30 to make and sells for >$2K or Bunnings selling four sheets of colourbond for a kids sandpit which costs them $10 and they sell for $300?

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I mean like audio gear....

Don't know why you need to justify your point by bringing in completely off topic reasons. I 100% agree with you that what I'm talking about is rampant in all business's, not just audio. You can't deny though that on this topic, this is also happening. It may not be happening at the percentages of Bunnings or iPhone, but how can it? We're talking purchase prices in the tens of thousands mostly, not 100's of dollars.

[Hydrology]

  On 28/03/2022 at 6:22 AM, Rori said:

50% to 80% profit.

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If you can find me a product in this industry that I can sell like hotcakes with this kind of margin, sign me up. Otherwise stop making assumptions without hard facts. Why should ANY dealer "show their books"? It is true that the audio business has been good during the pandemic - as has any industry that involves things to do with the home. But don't confuse turnover with profit margin. Turnover doesnt pay the bills.

Unless I'm mistaken, the audio business has been predominantly a buyers market for a long time. But let me say something that may come across as arrogant but it is not intended to be:-

 

A discount is a privilege, not a prerequisite of a sale, nor an obligation.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Hydrology

[rantan]

  On 28/03/2022 at 6:50 AM, Rori said:

I mean like audio gear....

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Audio gear in terms of retailer cost versus retailer profit margin are in the realms of 25-60%, depending on what the item/s are. The point I was making is that audio retail sales have a very low margin of profit compared to many other retail categories and also have very high costs in terms of storage, demonstration and overall logistics.

[Rori]

  On 28/03/2022 at 7:10 AM, Hydrology said:

 

If you can find me a product in this industry that I can sell like hotcakes with this kind of margin, sign me up. Otherwise stop making assumptions without hard facts. Why should ANY dealer "show their books"? It is true that the audio business has been good during the pandemic - as has any industry that involves things to do with the home. But don't confuse turnover with profit margin. Turnover doesnt pay the bills.

Unless I'm mistaken, the audio business has been predominantly a buyers market for a long time. But let me say something that may come across as arrogant but it is not intended to be:-

 

A discount is a privilege, not a prerequisite of a sale, nor an obligation.

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May not sell like hot cakes, no-one has made that comment. However Martin Logan would be close off the top of my head. I purchased a Martin Logan Balanced Force 212 which had an RRP of $8k in 2017 and I got a discount to $5300. Now assuming the dealer still made 20%, that takes it to $4240 cost. That's close to 90% on top. Even if the dealer made 10%, that's just shy of 70% increase from cost. Not being a dealer, I don't know how many products achieve these kinds of results, but I don't think this is the only brand either.

 

I'm sorry, but the discount however much it is does seem like a prerequisite. If it was a privelige, you wouldn't be offered 5 to 15% off just for signing up to the newsletter to receive great deals and hot prices etc. It should be an obligation at the prices customers are paying.

 

I haven't even gone into the smaller profit margins made on cost no object items in the realm of $50k plus. Sorry, but dealers are doing ok.

[Rori]

  On 28/03/2022 at 7:16 AM, rantan said:

 

Audio gear in terms of retailer cost versus retailer profit margin are in the realms of 25-60%, depending on what the item/s are. The point I was making is that audio retail sales have a very low margin of profit compared to many other retail categories and also have very high costs in terms of storage, demonstration and overall logistics.

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Atleast you're being fairly honest saying it is possible to get up to 60% on gear. I think based off my experience it can be even more with some brands.

 

Yes it isn't as high as other retail sectors, but it is not apples to apples with Bunnings and iPhone is it? They aren't selling gear that can cost $200k+ and their average sale price on an item wouldn't be anywhere near as high as the audio industry. Again, you can't expect 500% on an item that costs $2k+.

Not that I think Bunnings or iPhone are doing the right thing, they are worse really.

[Hydrology]

  On 28/03/2022 at 7:34 AM, Rori said:

May not sell like hot cakes, no-one has made that comment. However Martin Logan would be close off the top of my head. I purchased a Martin Logan Balanced Force 212 which had an RRP of $8k in 2017 and I got a discount to $5300. Now assuming the dealer still made 20%, that takes it to $4240 cost. That's close to 90% on top. Even if the dealer made 10%, that's just shy of 70% increase from cost. Not being a dealer, I don't know how many products achieve these kinds of results, but I don't think this is the only brand either.

 

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I sell Martin Logan - 90% margin? You literally are having a laugh.

There are plenty of dealers around the world who do seem to think that turnover is the most important thing. Before I moved to this great land I used to work for one, it didnt surprise me when they went under not long after I moved here.

So you claim to have gotten a great discount, but based on this very generous discount you recieved, rather than be happy you have now decided to devote your life to unravelling the mysteries of audio retailing - should we expect a 60 minutes expose anytime soon?

 

Sometimes as a retailer you need to turn something into money, not every decision nets you profit. And sometimes as a dealer you make stupid, costly mistakes. And sometimes as a dealer, you hope that by trying to wipe out the competition with stupid discounting, you will be the last man standing. Stupid.

 

[Wimbo]

  On 28/03/2022 at 7:42 AM, Rori said:

I think based off my experience it can be even more with some brands.

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What experience was that? I was in the trade for 34 years and getting to 30% GP was really hard. This doesnt include the time spent with some D...k..k waisting your time for hours then ringing around to get a better price. I once had a quote accepted on a "Smart Install" and as we were doing all the labor and cable install, the "Customer" cancelled piece after piece of the Hardware as we went along. Went backwards on that one and still had to install the Kit bought elsewhere as that was one of my my boss's  rules. I could go on and on and really, looking at this post is why the industry lost so many GOOD retaliers back in the early 90's.

[Wimbo]

  On 28/03/2022 at 7:43 AM, Hydrology said:

should we expect a 60 minutes expose anytime soon?

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Spot on.

[Rori]

  On 28/03/2022 at 7:55 AM, Wimbo said:

What experience was that? I was in the trade for 34 years and getting to 30% GP was really hard. This doesnt include the time spent with some D...k..k waisting your time for hours then ringing around to get a better price. I once had a quote accepted on a "Smart Install" and as we were doing all the labor and cable install, the "Customer" cancelled piece after piece of the Hardware as we went along. Went backwards on that one and still had to install the Kit bought elsewhere as that was one of my my boss's  rules. I could go on and on and really, looking at this post is why the industry lost so many GOOD retaliers back in the early 90's.

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You must've missed it, read up a bit.

[Wimbo]

  On 28/03/2022 at 7:57 AM, Rori said:

You must've missed it, read up a bit.

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You must have missed what I said. Your assuming, while I'm talking reality. One of the reasons I got out of the Industry was headbanging. It seems retailers still have to do it. As I've said before, can the Brick and Mortar and let them buy on Ebay.

[Rori]

  On 28/03/2022 at 7:43 AM, Hydrology said:

 

I sell Martin Logan - 90% margin? You literally are having a laugh.

There are plenty of dealers around the world who do seem to think that turnover is the most important thing. Before I moved to this great land I used to work for one, it didnt surprise me when they went under not long after I moved here.

So you claim to have gotten a great discount, but based on this very generous discount you recieved, rather than be happy you have now decided to devote your life to unravelling the mysteries of audio retailing - should we expect a 60 minutes expose anytime soon?

 

Sometimes as a retailer you need to turn something into money, not every decision nets you profit. And sometimes as a dealer you make stupid, costly mistakes. And sometimes as a dealer, you hope that by trying to wipe out the competition with stupid discounting, you will be the last man standing. Stupid.

 

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Mate, if I'm having a laugh where's the proof? Sorry, but I'm not just going to take your word for it. I gave my numbers and proof. No way did I receive the item at cost.

 

Of course dealers will object to what I see and have stated, as if any dealer is going to say, "yep, I'm making too much, I need to start slashing my prices". The only way this happens is if customers stop paying some of these prices.

 

Believe it or not, I'm ok with you blokes making money to run a business, it needs to happen. Just stop taking the piss. Prices of high end gear today is approaching unobtainable levels for guys who are actually doing ok in life. And could afford it once upon a time.

[Rori]

  On 28/03/2022 at 8:09 AM, Wimbo said:

You must have missed what I said. Your assuming, while I'm talking reality. One of the reasons I got out of the Industry was headbanging. It seems retailers still have to do it. As I've said before, can the Brick and Mortar and let them buy on Ebay.

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Haha mate you're on drugs. My experience isn't an assumption, I gave proof to Hydrology up above.

 

I just simply said that you missed my experience that I gave and to read up above your post to see the proof.

[rantan]

  On 28/03/2022 at 8:13 AM, Rori said:

Haha mate you're on drugs. My experience isn't an assumption, I gave proof to Hydrology up above.

 

I just simply said that you missed my experience that I gave and to read up above your post to see the proof.

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Proof  is not citing one situation where you received such a discount. You have no experience of the audio retail industry but we are supposed to believe that dealers are making a fortune because you cite one example.

 

My aim is not to make this personal and no offence is implied or intended, but you are making claims about the industry in general that you cannot back up with reliable evidence.

 

@Hydrology and @Wimbo and myself have spent decades in audio retailing, so are you accusing us of not being truthful or do you just have a vendetta against audio retailers in general?

[Hydrology]

  On 28/03/2022 at 8:10 AM, Rori said:

Mate, if I'm having a laugh where's the proof? Sorry, but I'm not just going to take your word for it. I gave my numbers and proof. No way did I receive the item at cost.

 

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I'm not asking you to take my word for it. But you gave proof? Did I miss this? Can you show me again, the following:-

The RRP Price List from the time you bought the sub.

The Dealer Price List from the time you bought the sub.

Your receipt from the time you bought the sub.

 

Once you have supplied all three I will eat humble pie and explain the "conspiracy"

 

Here's the thing, it's Ok if you believe in a conspiracy that retailers are making the extraordinary profit margins you claim. So, based on this, I hope it doesn't offend when I say that you may want to look at a new hobby and passion in your life because things are going to get even more expensive before they get any cheaper - they certainly aren't going to change because of your comments, I mean, why would we sacrifice all the fancy cars and lavish parties just because a few people on the net are upset?

 

Edited March 28, 2022 by Hydrology

[Phill451]

Cost plus margin may work as a business model for commodities but very little else. I would not like to see Hi Fi commoditised as it would inevitably result in lower quality products.

 

I’m all for price negotiation but am also comfortable paying a price that keeps retailers happily in business.

[Sean Perth]

I was going to reply but decided I probably don’t know enough 

All I know is I’ve had one experience of getting an absolute bargain on a pre and 2 monos and a pair of speakers with what I would call a decent 22.5% discount both deals I’ve been extremely happy with and the great level of service received 

 

[Rori]

  On 28/03/2022 at 8:33 AM, rantan said:

 

Proof  is not citing one situation where you received such a discount. You have no experience of the audio retail industry but we are supposed to believe that dealers are making a fortune because you cite one example.

 

My aim is not to make this personal and no offence is implied or intended, but you are making claims about the industry in general that you cannot back up with reliable evidence.

 

@Hydrology and @Wimbo and myself have spent decades in audio retailing, so are you accusing us of not being truthful or do you just have a vendetta against audio retailers in general?

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That is my proof/evidence with one brand. You cannot discount that. It would be very silly of any customer to believe that this is the only brand a dealer can make good coin as well.

 

All three of you are dealers, so just saying that "what I'm saying is false because we are dealers and have been in the industry for decades" doesn't amount to absolute proof either. It is essentially your words against mine and I've given some numbers to prove at least with ML it can be very high margin (even 50% margin is huge) and just not on, the rrp should be much less. I'm not going to ask for proof on paper again (which would show if my claims are false or not), obviously that would never happen. However I will say that, I, as a customer am not going to take your words as gospel. Grains of salt here.

 

No vendetta, I stated that reasonable margin is ok and needed for business's to survive. I do think that this is no longer about surviving and more about greed now. And not just with the audio retail sector.

 

Anyway, I think I'll tap out of this conversation, 3 dealers against one customer is obviously going to get no where. Of course you as a dealer would never let out what you're making, so all I can go off is my experience and what I can see with my own eyes. That has been expressed above so I won't go into it again.

 

I do hope this thread will continue with the original intent however, because I believe that will keep greed in check. Dealers shouldn't have anything to worry about with this thread continuing if they're making a reasonable margin only.

[Rori]

  On 28/03/2022 at 8:49 AM, Hydrology said:

 

I'm not asking you to take my word for it. But you gave proof? Did I miss this? Can you show me again, the following:-

The RRP Price List from the time you bought the sub.

The Dealer Price List from the time you bought the sub.

Your receipt from the time you bought the sub.

 

Once you have supplied all three I will eat humble pie and explain the "conspiracy"

 

Here's the thing, it's Ok if you believe in a conspiracy that retailers are making the extraordinary profit margins you claim. So, based on this, I hope it doesn't offend when I say that you may want to look at a new hobby and passion in your life because things are going to get even more expensive before they get any cheaper - they certainly aren't going to change because of your comments, I mean, why would we sacrifice all the fancy cars and lavish parties just because a few people on the net are upset?

 

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If you sell ML, you'll most likely have the first 2 items in your records. The third, i dont have the receipt unfortunately. I'm an honest guy and haven't bullshit the price I paid above. I also gave you the timeframe above. I'm not fussed whether you believe it or not.

 

I have different hobbies and will certainly be spending less time with this hobby and more time with the other hobbies. Like I said, it is getting unaffordable for me.

[Hydrology]

  On 28/03/2022 at 10:03 AM, Rori said:

If you sell ML, you'll most likely have the first 2 items in your records. The third, i dont have the receipt unfortunately. I'm an honest guy and haven't bullshit the price I paid above. I also gave you the timeframe above. I'm not fussed whether you believe it or not.

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I have no reason to doubt your claim of a purchase at a significant discount, however as it was you who said you offered proof more than once and you cannot supply any of three requirements to back your claim, I guess we will let the court of public opinion decide this one.

[Antipodean Brad]

  On 28/03/2022 at 10:15 AM, Hydrology said:

I guess we will let the court of public opinion decide this one.

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 I am a member of the public and I have an opinion on this one. (Actually, I have a few opinions, but most of them will remain unstated.)

 

The moderator(s) should call this topic closed, done, over-and-out, finis, finito, kaput and 'here endeth the topic'.

 

Goodnight, and thank you all for your attention.

 

 

[sir sanders zingmore]

@Rori you need to tone it down. A lot.