betty boop Posted July 22, 2016 Author Posted July 22, 2016 The yanks don't have utes, they call them all pickups. We call them all utes. or " TRUCKS " we "invented" the UTE apparently ! our utes are nothing like their trucks ... think dodge RAMS ! anything F series etc 1
betty boop Posted July 22, 2016 Author Posted July 22, 2016 Part Deux? Elon has been reading my Model three thread. Saw the new model S nose today. Makes it standout a bit more from the crowd. On the issue of cars driving themselves and generating income. They would have to drive themselves because who is going to pimp out the motor when it can do 0 to 100 in 3 seconds. The local hoods would be doing drivebys and seven eleven hold ups in your car while you are sleeping or having a meeting with the boss/staff/customers. Then there is the issue of traffic. I wonder if he has done the modelling of all the likely behaviour scenarios. I have to wonder if his Robo-uber......Rober....whatever, would actually reduce congestion or add to it with empty cars driving eveywhere to pick people up. Its an interesting idea but it seems no more developed than me and a mate bouncing around ideas over a bottle of red on a lazy Friday evening. unfortunately the whole segments missed.... a small car... a city run about. they are trying their best to make out the 3 as small car... the thing is not that much smaller than a merc E350 I read ! smaller than their current car though I guess thats bigger than a JEEP grand cherokee laredo I saw on the road in every dimension apart from height ! 1
proftournesol Posted July 22, 2016 Posted July 22, 2016 Sooner than you think - check out Zoox and a few others. It's been pretty researched since the 70's - there's a few research mega groups, check out California PATH. Meh. They'll be facing off against some giants in the commercial trucking space, and some ironically-named new boys https://www.trucks.com/2016/07/21/nikola-tesla-trucks/ (in addition to some tech that's just better suited). EV pickups are sensible and nothing new. Just 20 years behind GM. http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1075418_tired-15-year-old-chevy-s-10-electric-pickup-sells-for-4000 The success of EV trucks is going to depend on the economics. The Nikola looks like a good compromise with a gas turbine as a range-extender but I'll be interested to see what Tesla come up with. I'd assume that a fully EV truck would either have to have mega-range or swappable battery packs 1
proftournesol Posted July 22, 2016 Posted July 22, 2016 unfortunately the whole segments missed.... a small car... a city run about. they are trying their best to make out the 3 as small car... the thing is not that much smaller than a merc E350 I read ! smaller than their current car though I guess thats bigger than a JEEP grand cherokee laredo I saw on the road in every dimension apart from height ! I think that the problem with small city cars is the energy density of the battery - consumers want small city EV cars with the range of a large car even though for most trips 100km range is more than adequate. It'll probably take a while to get the energy density that allows small enough battery packs, and for that to happen at a price that makes a small long range EV price competitive. I sure that rmpfyf could provide more info on that 1
betty boop Posted July 22, 2016 Author Posted July 22, 2016 I think that the problem with small city cars is the energy density of the battery - consumers want small city EV cars with the range of a large car even though for most trips 100km range is more than adequate. It'll probably take a while to get the energy density that allows small enough battery packs, and for that to happen at a price that makes a small long range EV price competitive. I sure that rmpfyf could provide more info on that not necessarily, plenty will be quite happy with a city run about...for the 2nd car. trip to the shops, pick up kids probably never leaves a 20km radius of home ! this tesla plan is the best news for the likes of bmw, nissan, renault, GM that are playing in this space now. basically tesla are clearly saying they are not going to in the near and distant future play in the small and city car space. 1
proftournesol Posted July 22, 2016 Posted July 22, 2016 Tesla's plan is to create such a compelling case for a transition to EVs that it disrupts the existing ICE model and triggers that transition. Musk has never said that he wants to dominate every single section of the market for that to happen 1
betty boop Posted July 22, 2016 Author Posted July 22, 2016 Tesla's plan is to create such a compelling case for a transition to EVs that it disrupts the existing ICE model and triggers that transition. Musk has never said that he wants to dominate every single section of the market for that to happen well unfortunately thats not going to mean much to the bulk majority of car buyers who buy in the small to city segment. and yeah musk's signal is clear.... the other car makers will be rejoicing ! 1
proftournesol Posted July 22, 2016 Posted July 22, 2016 well unfortunately thats not going to mean much to the bulk majority of car buyers who buy in the small to city segment. and yeah musk's signal is clear.... the other car makers will be rejoicing ! Yep, Tesla will be rejoicing if other manufacturers can do it too, but I'd imagine the same issues that are stopping Tesla producing a range and cost competitive city EV are also stopping the traditional car makers especially as they are at an earlier point in the EV development curve 1
betty boop Posted July 22, 2016 Author Posted July 22, 2016 Yep, Tesla will be rejoicing if other manufacturers can do it too, but I'd imagine the same issues that are stopping Tesla producing a range and cost competitive city EV are also stopping the traditional car makers especially as they are at an earlier point in the EV development curve Well they do actually have cars in that segment already so just matter of refinement, range not an issue for these am sure cost just matter if time. Car industry are brilliant in that aspect just have to see what your money buys these days vs years ago ! 1
Guest jakeyb77 Posted July 22, 2016 Posted July 22, 2016 I am never going electric! Which reminds me @@betty boop when are you selling the Fiat? I might buy the engine as a spare starter motor.
Guest rmpfyf Posted July 22, 2016 Posted July 22, 2016 The success of EV trucks is going to depend on the economics. The Nikola looks like a good compromise with a gas turbine as a range-extender but I'll be interested to see what Tesla come up with. I'd assume that a fully EV truck would either have to have mega-range or swappable battery packs Energy density of batteries needs to go through the roof for long haul in order for it not to be a truck that carries around less load and more batteries. On longer routes and heavier payloads a fuel cell powertrain wins here, everytime.
betty boop Posted July 22, 2016 Author Posted July 22, 2016 I am never going electric! Which reminds me @@betty boop when are you selling the Fiat? I might buy the engine as a spare starter motor. Haha we have no plans of selling the fiat !You would be amazed what a good engine the FIAT FIRE (Fully Integrated Robotised Engine) engine they run in the 500. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fully_Integrated_Robotised_Engine Wouldn't honestly believe it what a rorty, free spinning thing it is with real urge and how responsive it is. Also probably wouldn't appreciate the sheer fun factor ... As hard to believe ! Think related the tiny thing it is how can chuck it around at abandon I say this coming from the last two cars being turbo hot hatches that would get to 0-100 in about the third the time the fiat does Re electric cars no plans here getting one unless makers real sense. We neither get the choice or pricing on them here that makes much sense getting one now 1
proftournesol Posted July 22, 2016 Posted July 22, 2016 Well they do actually have cars in that segment already so just matter of refinement, range not an issue for these am sure cost just matter if time. Car industry are brilliant in that aspect just have to see what your money buys these days vs years ago ! They are in that segment but not profitably! GM may even be selling every Bolt at a loss, that'll concern them as demand is likely higher than they figured. Fiat lose money off every 500e that they sell but need to offer it in California for their fleet average. It'll come but this will be the last segment to electrify as it's the most price sensitive 1
betty boop Posted July 22, 2016 Author Posted July 22, 2016 They are in that segment but not profitably! GM may even be selling every Bolt at a loss, that'll concern them as demand is likely higher than they figured. Fiat lose money off every 500e that they sell but need to offer it in California for their fleet average. It'll come but this will be the last segment to electrify as it's the most price sensitive As I mentioned one thing the car makers are Very good at is cost cutting and increasing value in what you buy. Cost just matter of time... Think back to what $30k bought in a car 10 years ago vs now ! Same thing will happen with electric 2
Briz Vegas Posted July 22, 2016 Posted July 22, 2016 How hard would it be to offer a four seat version of the Twizy as a commuter. Sure, there are a few things to resolve but it's just design refinement. 1
proftournesol Posted July 22, 2016 Posted July 22, 2016 How hard would it be to offer a four seat version of the Twizy as a commuter. Sure, there are a few things to resolve but it's just design refinement. Actually a fair bit for Australia, in Europe it's registered under the same category as quad bikes and so doesn't meet the safety regulations that are required for a car. It would be hard to justify a 4 seat quad bike to European legislators and we can't even get the existing Twizy here unfortunately 1
betty boop Posted July 22, 2016 Author Posted July 22, 2016 How hard would it be to offer a four seat version of the Twizy as a commuter. Sure, there are a few things to resolve but it's just design refinement. couple of years ago renault brought one in, http://www.caradvice.com.au/300727/renault-twizy-lands-in-australia/ yep thats its a scooter but falls in the passenger vehicle category here as the article says that places quite a few road blocks look, rather twizy even a more conventional renault zoe would do but its not here and no sign of it coming for what ever reason... 1
TomAus Posted July 22, 2016 Posted July 22, 2016 Speaking of Renault and electric cars; there is an interesting vehicle for sale in New York A 1960 Henney Kilowatt which uses chassis parts from the Renault Dauphine. 1
Rob181 Posted July 22, 2016 Posted July 22, 2016 A perfect example of...not being able to make a silk purse from a sows ear...
betty boop Posted July 22, 2016 Author Posted July 22, 2016 Speaking of Renault and electric cars; there is an interesting vehicle for sale in New York A 1960 Henney Kilowatt which uses chassis parts from the Renault Dauphine. there you go ! I had to read up on it.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henney_Kilowatt so while here we are talking about tesla making a small city car run about... and there we have something that was in production 57 ! years ago that would fit the bill ! top speed 60 mph and a range of 60 miles ! acknowledged in significance as the "world's first mass produced electric car" talk about pioneers ! looks like they appreciated the significance of them too with 2 preserved with less than 500 miles on them and another two still in existence like its style nice find Tom 2
Guest rmpfyf Posted July 23, 2016 Posted July 23, 2016 (edited) I think that the problem with small city cars is the energy density of the battery - consumers want small city EV cars with the range of a large car even though for most trips 100km range is more than adequate. It'll probably take a while to get the energy density that allows small enough battery packs, and for that to happen at a price that makes a small long range EV price competitive. I sure that rmpfyf could provide more info on that Consumers aren't broadly aware of the possibility of getting by without 100km range because they've not really been sold it. Most studies I've seen cite 120-160km range (that's the same battery size, just winter/summer range) as the threshold of acceptance for a BEV without PHEV functionaliy, which is practically where the i3/Leaf fall. I think this could be brought down with education and infrastructure... which also boils down to education. It's doable. You won't find any argument from me @@betty boop, I've long campaigned (publicly too) for a small EV. The challenges: There's less margin in EVs with smaller batteries When a price of a car goes down, consumer expectations around quality go up, as does financial risk around quality issues Prev. two points mean they're harder to make than big EV luxobarges The typical auto sales channel is very much setup to sell cars to individuals ('mum', 'dad', 'man with mid-life crisis' etc) rather than to household duties ('short-range car for city use', etc). @@betty boop is right, you fix this last part and the rest is easier. I'm personally a big fan of the Renault Zoe (coming to NZ! http://www.renault.co.nz/electric-vehicles/),and stuff like the Yamaha MOTIV.e (http://www.carscoops.com/2015/02/yamaha-will-build-gordon-murrays-motiv.html). No rebates + limited numbers here (stifled in the sales channel, really) mean the per-unit prices are high until someone finds a need for more than 300 of them a year... at which point it's cost-equitable to do one between $25-30k. At which point I'd buy one! Toyota could nearly as easily do a Prius-C/Yaris PHEV. Edited July 23, 2016 by rmpfyf
betty boop Posted July 27, 2016 Author Posted July 27, 2016 while tesla might have decided the small to medium car market is not for them, good to see merc in its plans following bmw http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/leaked-document-reveals-mercedesbenzs-future-20160726-gqdpyv.html with two contenders in this small to medium space. the smart range very obviously in the city car space, 1st half of 2017 is not long away so the germans are obviously moving swiftly "The two Smart models – the all-electric ForTwo cabriolet EV and ForFour EV – are planned for launch during the first half of 2017." like the sounds of the "ForFour EV" ps incase some might think this is just some knee jerk, I wouldn't presume...cars take forever to get through the pipe line and end up in the market. likely merc has been working on this one quite a while .... 1
Jake Posted July 27, 2016 Posted July 27, 2016 while tesla might have decided the small to medium car market is not for them, good to see merc in its plans following bmw http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/leaked-document-reveals-mercedesbenzs-future-20160726-gqdpyv.html with two contenders in this small to medium space. the smart range very obviously in the city car space, 1st half of 2017 is not long away so the germans are obviously moving swiftly "The two Smart models – the all-electric ForTwo cabriolet EV and ForFour EV – are planned for launch during the first half of 2017." like the sounds of the "ForFour EV" ps incase some might think this is just some knee jerk, I wouldn't presume...cars take forever to get through the pipe line and end up in the market. likely merc has been working on this one quite a while .... I am actually quite excited abut what wonderful vehicles Mercedes and other respected car makers will come out with in the next few years. Agreed that this is no knee-jerk. EV is a no-brainer.Slightly OT, I am a little surprised by the E Class All Terrain. Have they just realised that Subaru Outbacks sell well? 1
Guest rmpfyf Posted July 27, 2016 Posted July 27, 2016 Apparently Porsche dealers are taking Mission-E deposits... ...the historically ominous words apply: the Germans are coming!
proftournesol Posted July 27, 2016 Posted July 27, 2016 We are in for a real treat if the Model S is any indication. Do I miss the lack of torque? No way Do I miss the vroom vroom noise? Nope Do I miss the gear changes? Nup Do I miss the smelly dinosaur juice and the fumes? Not at all Do I miss the vibration and general drive train crudity? No There'll be no going back to ICE after you've driven a decent EV. The only hurdles for the traditional makers is the lack of a high power charging network and their $ per kWh costs 1
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