Monk Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 Now this is the type of electric car that is cool... The look on Alejandro's face when Mate gives it the boot a couple of times is pretty funny considering the cars he drives. 2
Guest rmpfyf Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 (edited) Feel compelled to correct a few inaccuracies here... On 10/2/2016 at 10:11 PM, al said: we dont get the prius plug in. only the hybrid. We had five pre-production plug-in Prius which the public could drive for a limited time. On 10/2/2016 at 10:11 PM, al said: as per this earlier post, I was shocked to find out the battery in the prius is only good for 2km but in reality probably about 600m if you are lucky ! No, it'll do 2km. Sometimes more. It's not supposed to be bigger. The practical limit to what it'll do is often the size of the electric motor, not the battery capacity - it's relatively low power (by design) and will trip out of EV mode pretty quickly if you step on it. it is not an EV. On 10/2/2016 at 10:11 PM, al said: cars like the prius run on petrol using the electric when there is charge to fill in some gaps with its tiny little battery. Gross oversimplification, and wrong. On 10/2/2016 at 10:11 PM, al said: other hybrids are actually electric and if they have a petrol motor on board but it actually runs as a generator... i.e. the car 100% of the time is powered only by one motor an electric one... and when the battery runs out the petrol generator kicks in to charge the battery. There are half-breeds too (gen I Volt is a good example). On 10/2/2016 at 10:20 PM, proftournesol said: Prius seems like a complete waste of time and money to me, needlessly complex with little benefit to the environment or to performance On 9/30/2016 at 2:44 PM, al said: toyotas hybrids are one of the biggest confab's going as far as concerned if anything else electric cars will send them the way of the dodo Factually wrong on so many levels. For a long time Prius was the only car with anywhere near its fuel economy, particularly city cycle. From launch is did something many other cars didn't - it hit fuel consumption targets reliably. There's a generation of people in the US (large nation, you may have heard of it) that only have MPG awareness because they've had a Prius. Prius led to the development of a number of technologies the EV/HV/PHEV industries take for granted now - from electric air conditioner compressors to high-voltage systems, better IGBT's and the list goes on. It also rebooted the auto industries' attention to low vehicle aerodynamic drag. It's spawned many competitors since and the trickle-down chain of tech development means you can get some form of Prius-derived tech in cars all through a product range - not just Toyota's - and much of the broader automotive supply chain. There are now groups of companies that exist solely to compete with Denso (parts supplier part-owned by Toyota) with supply of parts solely for the EV/HV/PHEV vehicle industry. Put really simply - without the Prius a few key bits of a Tesla simply wouldn't exist. And it's fairly silly to intimate the hybrid tech is Toyota's only stab at the future. Or FCV, for that matter. On 10/2/2016 at 10:30 PM, al said: I truly have no idea how they have managed to con the populace for so long . Easy. They haven't. Where the Prius makes sense it makes a lot of sense (key US cities, Japan) - trips are shorter, no one uses diesel in their passenger cars, the car itself is cheaper and fuel prices took a sharp rise sometime last decade. Australia's the complete opposite. On 10/2/2016 at 10:30 PM, al said: the plug in hybrid maybe if we ever got it might make more sense, A lot has to fall into place for this to hold true. On 10/2/2016 at 10:30 PM, al said: but as it is the prius is such a heavy thing 1315 kg and with the petrol engine needed to move it ... its no wonder likes of peugeot with the 308 in real terms do better fuel economy wise with their high tech fuel efficient engine and light weight under 1000kg body. Having run these very real-world fleet numbers for a living in a past live, this is a bold statement... one that's not true. On urban cycle - what the Prius is designed for - it does considerably better than the 308. Drive like an idiot and yep, it'll increase (much like any other car) but leave the car in what it was supposed to do - hit the ECO buttons for drive and HVAC modes - don't drive like an idiot, and it does just fine. Only the Prius C and CT200h come close. 1315kg isn't particularly heavy. And frankly when a Peugeot goes 400,000+km on taxi duty (as many Prius do), we'll talk. 14 hours ago, al said: the problem with the prius is the big hulk of weight it has to move since it has to have parallel drive trains. there are more efficient ways to go in my opinion. Nope. The extra mass in a Prius (or most hybrid Toyotas) is actually not as big as you'd think... and they're certainly not 'parallel' drivetrains per se. Nor is the advantage in fuel consumption at all outweighed by some extra powertrain mass. 14 hours ago, al said: on a highway cruising at 100km/h a hybrid like a prius is really not going to bring any benefits... Wrong. Aerodynamically it's quite good, and and ICE coasts for a good deal more than it does without a hybrid powertrain. 14 hours ago, al said: once the prius plug in comes along the std prius we get now probably make even less sense. Hope it does - the Prime is an awesome car - we're unlikely to get it here until subsidies appear, and even then the gen 2 Volt is a better car for Australia. On 9/30/2016 at 2:07 PM, Briz Vegas said: A 300 to 400km Zoe I would buy tomorrow if it was $30k. I would not even need to road test it. It would be a no brainer. $40k. WTF. Why am I not surprised that mainstream car companies keep frustrating us greenies. I can see myself still driving the same car in 10 years time. Still waiting. Australian as a nation is so backward, it's very sad. Chicken and egg argument. Toyota brings the new Corolla over knowing it will sell ~40k a year peak tending to something lesser by end of model five years later. Company x brings an EV over not knowing how many it will sell at all, but knowing that just to homologate a car for Australia is a minimum $500k exercise, and maximum $2M. Let's say it's $1M for the sake of argument for something completely new, which is a cost divided into every car sold here. It has to bet that the car will actually sell for for five years, despite the EV market being the fastest-changing product segment in auto right now (and this will continue for some time). If it sells 100 cars, each car costs $10k more. 1000 cars, each car costs $1k more. It has to bet that there will be less cars of this type sold because it won't launch with a mega marketing campaign, that'd cost more. Dealers need to be trained on something very new. Costs add up. In two years Tesla will launch the 3, within four years they'll be competing with second-hand i3 customers. How many of those Zoes are going to be sold down here again? What's the projection? Car sales/distributors stop losing sleep at many hundreds of sales per year, not a few hundred over five years. When there's real demand, they'll sell no worries. In the meantime, get a second-hand Volt - they're awesome value. Edited October 3, 2016 by rmpfyf
proftournesol Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 Demand is the issue. In every other market it's been kickstarted by subsidies and road privileges (like using express bus lanes, free parking, free chargers etc). I can't see any of that ever happening here. I should be grateful for the $100 registration discount in Australia 1
Guest rmpfyf Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 3 minutes ago, proftournesol said: Demand is the issue. Let's be exact, the issues are: Demand (not driven + not qualified) A federal, mandated commitment to fleet carbon emissions (Australia doesn't have it yet) Homologation requirements (Australia is picky) Scale The last point is really important. An argument that justifies 1 car/year down here justifies (on market size) 12 cars in the US, so it's a good bit harder to get the ball rolling here.
proftournesol Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 Yes, without your first 3 points we'll never get the last point. I only think that we'll have large scale EV sales here by default when new ICE cars start becoming rare. Certainly the COAL-ition Government has zero interest. I thought that local homologation requirements were changing and that we were going to adopt EU standards. Scale is the reason why we'll never be a priority here, especially if we make unique demands on manufacturers 1
betty boop Posted October 3, 2016 Author Posted October 3, 2016 Prius is not an ev it's a hybrid. The hybrid side is really there to improve its fuel economy. And is a porker as a result 1300 kg plus for a small car that's trying to improve on fuel economy ? oh so it can do 2km on its electric power oh wow how wonderfull ! Imagine if a company brought out an ev tomorrow with a range proclaimed as a wonderfull 2km ... what a laughing stock ! lets talk when they have an ev on the market And am not talking about some 5 cars they might bring in for play purposes am talking actually for sale so people can buy it ! At moment I don't see any point in it and that's besides that is one of the most ugliest things on the road but I guess some will put that behind them. if Toyota don't give a hoot for our market with a plug in hybrid or an actual ev car I suppose be just yet another maker to do so and leave the market wide open for other entrants. 2
betty boop Posted October 3, 2016 Author Posted October 3, 2016 6 hours ago, proftournesol said: Yes, without your first 3 points we'll never get the last point. I only think that we'll have large scale EV sales here by default when new ICE cars start becoming rare. Certainly the COAL-ition Government has zero interest. I thought that local homologation requirements were changing and that we were going to adopt EU standards. Scale is the reason why we'll never be a priority here, especially if we make unique demands on manufacturers We just killed off all our local car makers.. so I guess we are trying real hard to kill ice cars off. electruc cars will be s priority for buying public when they make sense. Cars pretending to be Evs won't cut it. Cars with a pathetic electric range won't cut it. the mass populace will take on when we start to get cars like the Zoe, bolt and Opel alternative. Even the leaf showed people won't buy average cars and pay big money for them. we still have a long way to go. 2020 with Vw entry is not that far away ... perhaps that will be the electric car for the people.... 1
betty boop Posted October 3, 2016 Author Posted October 3, 2016 "Feel compelled to correct a few inaccuracies here..." no problem, let me be your guest.... here is the review of the latest prius.... http://www.caradvice.com.au/423354/2016-toyota-prius-review/ lets get down to their impressions... "Our first impressions are that the fourth-generation Prius seems more like a substantial mid-life facelift than an all-new car. It lacks the wow-factor that the Prius is meant to have and using essentially the same engine and battery systems as its predecessor doesn’t really help its cause." "The decision to stick with nickel-metal hydride batteries over lithium-ionas well as maintaining the same pure EV range – 1.5 to 2 kilometres – of the old car seems overly conservative. It has been seven years since the third-generation came out and times have moved on, but it appears the Prius hasn’t. Toyota itself, seemingly aware of this dilemma, likens the Prius to Nissan-brand ambassador Usain Bolt, by noting that when Bolt goes out to do a 100m sprint, he is not going to beat his record by seconds, but potentially by milliseconds. It’s an odd attitude, one that suggests the Prius has hit its peak and technological saturation point and Toyota is not ready yet to make the transition to full electric vehicles." thats at the crux of it ... toyota isn't ready for a full EV...and they are continuing on now just finessing an old platform trying their best to get the best from it.... but the world indeed has moved on...appears toyota with the prius hasnt. fuel economy ? "To give credit where credit is due, fuel usage has gone down from 3.9L litres per 100 kilometres to 3.4L/100km (best we could manage was 5.4L/100km) thanks to host of reasons including better thermal efficiency, aerodynamics, and hybrid software and hardware." yes best they could manage was 5.4 L/100....not their claimed.... i can tell you there are cars can buy now that will achieve this and without having to pay for the hybrid side of it. note the below too... "The new Prius can manage to remain in EV mode now at speeds of up to 105km/h, where the previous one would give up at about 75km/h. However, it will not engage EV mode past 40km/h once on the go, and we found it would revert to the petrol engine with a light push of the accelerator." this is exactly what I was talking about and have seen in real world use..... ok they have probably got the prius to about the best its ever been... but as they sum up, "But for what the Prius was always meant to be, it does nothing new. It doesn’t push the boundaries of what is possible. Why not a plug-in variant? Why not increase the EV range? Why remove satellite navigation from the base spec? All questions that the Prius has no answer to. The Latin term Prius means something that is ‘coming before’. Toyota chose it almost 20 years ago because the Prius was launched well before automotive environmental awareness became a mainstream issue. It many ways, the Prius has served its purpose and helped start a revolution that its maker is struggling to keep on top of." unfortunately a closing line indicates toyota to being more interested in hydrogen power... "It’s now that we look truly to the future, which is where the hydrogen fuel-cell powered Toyota Mirai comes in, a name that literally translates into “the future”, and it’s a bright one." wish them luck but obviously EVs are not really on their radar right now.... 1
joz Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 I wonder how the gov' will penalise EVs in the future to compensate it for the loss of revenue? 2
betty boop Posted October 3, 2016 Author Posted October 3, 2016 7 minutes ago, joz said: I wonder how the gov' will penalise EVs in the future to compensate it for the loss of revenue? i think they are doing that already with spiralling up electricity bills ! rolls in the gst... 1
ufo Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 11 minutes ago, joz said: I wonder how the gov' will penalise EVs in the future to compensate it for the loss of revenue? Easy, there is some sort of special Minister in Turnbull's cabinet (can't remember his name) talking about removing fuel excise and implementing a tax based on the Kms a vehicle does in a year and its weight. According to him this way, heavy trucks pay more and also electric vehicles pay their fair share of tax which they avoid by not using/purchasing fuel thus avoiding fuel excise. 1
betty boop Posted October 3, 2016 Author Posted October 3, 2016 20 minutes ago, ufo said: Easy, there is some sort of special Minister in Turnbull's cabinet (can't remember his name) talking about removing fuel excise and implementing a tax based on the Kms a vehicle does in a year and its weight. According to him this way, heavy trucks pay more and also electric vehicles pay their fair share of tax which they avoid by not using/purchasing fuel thus avoiding fuel excise. that makes a lot of sense actually ! dont know how they will administer though... with kms per year and such where becoming part of the tax return could turn into a bit of a night mare ! 1
Briz Vegas Posted October 3, 2016 Posted October 3, 2016 rmpfyf you should be careful stating that you do something for a living. Its a claim of expertise. Then you go and make a biased statement, like show me a Peugeot that will do 400,000 km. I had the same Pug for 20 years, A fellow Audiophile sold his Citroen to a mate that was still going strong at that sort of kms and Paris is full of Peugeot cabs. You also didn't read my post ( which is fine, it was longish) where i demonstrated no benefit of a Prius on the highway but happily conceded regarding city driving. Given 2 cars of similar aerodynamics, in a context of highway driving where weight and regen braking are not a significant part of the equation, a 1.2 3 cylinder is a more better donk than a 1.8 4 cylinder. Back on topic, this is looooong ( so i skipped bits) but it is a nice rundown of 23,000 miles over 3 years running a Zoe electric, and the owners thoughts on the longer range. This bloke looks like most audiophiles I know. ;-) 1
Guest Muon Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 400.000km is nothing special, many petrol engines have done and do better, one 97 Mirage in Japan is on record of making it to 997,000 miles! yeah, that is miles. That's was an Orion motor I think.
Rob181 Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 3 hours ago, ufo said: Easy, there is some sort of special Minister in Turnbull's cabinet (can't remember his name) talking about removing fuel excise and implementing a tax based on the Kms a vehicle does in a year and its weight. According to him this way, heavy trucks pay more and also electric vehicles pay their fair share of tax which they avoid by not using/purchasing fuel thus avoiding fuel excise. 2 hours ago, al said: that makes a lot of sense actually ! dont know how they will administer though... with kms per year and such where becoming part of the tax return could turn into a bit of a night mare ! So..using a fuel efficient vehicle is deemed to be a form of tax avoidance...please...this must be the same Einstein that came up with the GST administration...I have heard some very ordinary ideas coming from Canberra...this is right up there...the only advantage will be the reduction in unemployment cause you would need an army of additional people to administer it... With Tax (& in most systems) the KISS method is the best...easy to administer & the least likely for fraud or avoidance...excise is charged at its source...as all tax should be...want more money from fuel excise change the diesel fuel rebate scheme...better still eliminate it altogether...
ufo Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 So..using a fuel efficient vehicle is deemed to be a form of tax avoidance...please...this must be the same Einstein that came up with the GST administration.. Couldn't have agreed more. That's unfortunately how Liberals see the world and it shows how narrow minded they are or may be I should say how blind they are. Pls don't get me wrong I am not into politics, don't support any party or ideology but some of the ideas coming out of Liberals are far beyond laughable.
joz Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 Well once it's not being paid as fuel excise and gst as cars become more fuel efficient it only make sense that they will try and recoup it elsewhere. It's not in our government interests for us to pay less tax. dont need Einstein to work any of that out. 1
betty boop Posted October 4, 2016 Author Posted October 4, 2016 interesting comment below form renault on an electric RS.... Another big part of Renault's global strategy is electric cars, of course, and it is now the world's biggest producer of EVs. Renault Sport boss Ratti admits that makes an RS EV pretty much an inevitability, but he says he wants to wait until the battery technology gets to the next level. "A full electric RS car, yes, It's coherent with the strategy of Renault and the evolution of the market," he said. "Surely, we won't do only electric cars but we could well have one in the range. The thing you lose is the noise, that's clear, but an electric motor has a lot of torque. The acceleration is very high, because there's a lot of torque per cubic metre. "http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/renault-sports-future-plans-revealed-20161003-gru675.html#ixzz4M6r8Qc7N 1
Guest rmpfyf Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 12 hours ago, al said: Prius is not an ev it's a hybrid. The hybrid side is really there to improve its fuel economy. And is a porker as a result 1300 kg plus for a small car that's trying to improve on fuel economy ? 1300kg for what it is (segment+feature set) isn't a heavy car at all. (Let alone that my Volt is over 1700kg and averages 3.2L/100km). Where hybrid powertrains are involved, weight doesn't directly correlate into fuel consumption equally for all drive cycles. It's a horses for courses argument. 12 hours ago, al said: oh so it can do 2km on its electric power oh wow how wonderfull ! You've missed the point (again) - it's not there for EV-only range. 12 hours ago, al said: Imagine if a company brought out an ev tomorrow with a range proclaimed as a wonderfull 2km ... what a laughing stock ! Read above. 12 hours ago, al said: lets talk when they have an ev on the market And am not talking about some 5 cars they might bring in for play purposes am talking actually for sale so people can buy it ! Toyota has sold EVs before. 12 hours ago, al said: At moment I don't see any point in it and that's besides that is one of the most ugliest things on the road but I guess some will put that behind them. That you are not a customer doesn't mean others aren't with merit. 12 hours ago, al said: if Toyota don't give a hoot for our market with a plug in hybrid or an actual ev car I suppose be just yet another maker to do so and leave the market wide open for other entrants. Read my prior bit on economics. Given Toyota's sales position in the AU market (#1), whatever the market is currently 'wide open' for they seem to cater to well. Whilst I personally wish that what you suggest is correct, currently the AU auto market is demand-driven, and Toyota currently seems to cater to that much best. 12 hours ago, al said: here is the review of the latest prius.... http://www.caradvice.com.au/423354/2016-toyota-prius-review/ ('the review'? There are others...) Caradvice - an absolute font of knowledge 12 hours ago, al said: "The decision to stick with nickel-metal hydride batteries over lithium-ionas well as maintaining the same pure EV range – 1.5 to 2 kilometres – of the old car seems overly conservative. It has been seven years since the third-generation came out and times have moved on, but it appears the Prius hasn’t. Why? What would lithium-ion add to a battery in a hybrid? What would added EV range add to a hybrid (a car where EV-only range isn't a priority at all)? If you're driving a hybrid with a battery solely there to buffer transient performance (e.g. to do what a battery does in a hybrid) and you're writing press about what happens when you flicked the EV-mode button at various speeds on and off... you're an idiot. It's irrelevant. Not going to bother countering this drivel blow by blow - suffice to say - Prius rides on a new platform now, you'd have to be inert if you've driven the last car and the new one not to pick the difference (it's pretty substantial). If you're curious, get into a dealership and try it. I've run fleets of Prius and other cars; they'll average low 4's/100km pretty easily driven by regular people without much trouble. I think there's better value buys out there even so far as hybrids (Prius C is a good example) but your comments just aren't true. Sorry. Your Toyota-bashing is palpable but really, talking about it in the scope of 'they're not ready for the transition to EVs' is... completely wrong. Toyota puts a ton of money into EV research from a number of perspectives (not just vehicle development). Whilst it's not local (AU) material, some you can access freely and it's pretty relevant reading and watching - happy to provide links if you like. Toyota has manufactured EVs before and will do so again. They've one of the best hybrid-electric motorsport powertrains in the world. Even the Mirai is just an electric vehicle with a hydrogen store for a battery. So much of what's in a Prius... is essential to EVs. Literally. You seem to want EVs on market - so do I - you'd be surprised at the key components in EVs the world over that are descendants of, developments of, or reverse-engineered interpretations of parts in a Prius. In some cases, what you'll find in an EV are literally Prius parts. I personally wouldn't buy the latest Prius but I can respect it. Happy to discuss the above - if you're just keen to beat up on it for fun, that's another thing altogether. 10 hours ago, Briz Vegas said: rmpfyf you should be careful stating that you do something for a living. Its a claim of expertise. Then you go and make a biased statement, like show me a Peugeot that will do 400,000 km. I had the same Pug for 20 years, A fellow Audiophile sold his Citroen to a mate that was still going strong at that sort of kms and Paris is full of Peugeot cabs. You also didn't read my post ( which is fine, it was longish) where i demonstrated no benefit of a Prius on the highway but happily conceded regarding city driving. Given 2 cars of similar aerodynamics, in a context of highway driving where weight and regen braking are not a significant part of the equation, a 1.2 3 cylinder is a more better donk than a 1.8 4 cylinder. Happy to stand on that claim. Didn't say a Pug can't last that long - one in the family around this mileage does just fine. Point was a Prius will last a very long time, hybrid system and all... in some pretty marginal conditions with very minimal degradation to net fuel economy. Which is impressive. It'll have contributed less life-cycle CO2, particulate emissions, etc. Should have spelt this much out, apols. Read your post - you may have missed my inferred agreement - hybrids like the Prius work well in urban driving... which is what they're designed for. This is no surprise. 1.2/3 vs 1.8/4 argument is incomplete. Depends on the load the engine's pulling, net efficiency and the elasticity of the engine.
betty boop Posted October 4, 2016 Author Posted October 4, 2016 pass on it sorry rmp, your confusing a lot of quotes from the article posted as mine, never mind I actually agree with the article which only supports the previous article I already posted on it prior. lets talk about toyota Electric cars when they have one. which given by the article posted they dont seem to be interested in... wiht hydrogen in the wind 1
betty boop Posted October 4, 2016 Author Posted October 4, 2016 9 hours ago, Muon said: 400.000km is nothing special, many petrol engines have done and do better, one 97 Mirage in Japan is on record of making it to 997,000 miles! yeah, that is miles. That's was an Orion motor I think. if there is one thing id associate pugs with ... its long legs. I've owned a couple of peugeots myself over about a decade or so. no issues. bullet proof. and yes there are heaps of them out there clocking up the kms...some in challenging conditions of middle east and africa and seem to kind of things that never look to die ! I agree with you here is nothing fantabulous about clocking up kms...just talk to cabbies wiht their ford falcons.... 1
Guest rmpfyf Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 22 minutes ago, al said: pass on it sorry rmp, your confusing a lot of quotes from the article posted as mine, never mind I actually agree with the article which only supports the previous article I already posted on it prior. No confusion, your sentiment is clear, and much of what you suggest is incorrect. 22 minutes ago, al said: lets talk about toyota Electric cars when they have one. which given by the article posted they dont seem to be interested in... wiht hydrogen in the wind Do you not get it al? The Mirai is an electric car. Just like every FCV they've built before it. It has everything an electric car has, with a much smaller battery and a fuel cell+H2 tank. Want battery electric? That'd be the RAV4 EV (1st generation) RAV4 EV (2nd generation), iQ EV, i-Road, etc. PHEV? Prius Plug-in, now a third generation product. These have everything an EV has plus an ICE. They've been doing this for some time. That article is incredibly weak.
betty boop Posted October 4, 2016 Author Posted October 4, 2016 pass...non interest in hydrogen cars... non interest in the prius sorry ... no matter how much you want to tart it up .... 1
Guest rmpfyf Posted October 4, 2016 Posted October 4, 2016 1 minute ago, al said: pass...non interest in hydrogen cars... non interest in the prius sorry ... no matter how much you want to tart it up .... Thank you for proving an earlier point, al.
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