Electric Cars Discussion

[LHC]

I just don't understand this Toyota bashing. The case against the extra drive train and weight is weak also. So what if the Prius is a bit heavier? If one does not try to drive it around like a hot hatch the weight is a non-issue in city driving. Toyota engineers would have already factored in the weight into their fuel usage calculation. 

 

The extra drive train actually gives you simplicity in design in terms of reliability. I talked to a dealership mechanic once and he said their hybrid cars are as easy to service as their other cars, just with some extra components added on. So with that design approach they are not compromising on their legendary reliability credential.

 

The Prius is Toyota's 'sandbox' in terms of trying out new innovations to reduce fuel usage, e.g. with aerodynamic styling (unfortunately it ruins its looks IMO). Some motor journalists branded it Toyota's 'S Class'. Sure, in pure and practical terms it may not be as energy/fuel efficient as one would ideally like, but there is no denying its role in championing the causes of green conservationism. 

 

 

 

[Guest rmpfyf]

Well.... to better news - this is actually pretty good

 

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/autosport-news/345207/mercedes-signs-option-for-2018-19-fe-entry/

[betty boop]

41 minutes ago, LHC said:

I just don't understand this Toyota bashing.~

The Prius is Toyota's 'sandbox' in terms of trying out new innovations to reduce fuel usage, e.g. with aerodynamic styling (unfortunately it ruins its looks IMO). Some motor journalists branded it Toyota's 'S Class'. Sure, in pure and practical terms it may not be as energy/fuel efficient as one would ideally like, but there is no denying its role in championing the causes of green conservati

 

 

Its not toyota bashing, its a case of non interest..

 

note what cadogan suggests in in his wrap up of "which small car should you buy in 2016."

 

http://autoexpert.com.au/buying-a-car/which-small-car-to-buy

 

shortly after his cut the crap out section he brands both hybrid Prius models we get as ...." irrelevant "... just as irrelevant they are to this thread,

 

 below is what he had to say ...

 

"Above, L-R: Toyota Prius & Prius V. Combined, these two accounted for slightly more than one vehicle in every 1000 sold across 2014

You don’t really want a hybrid, do you? I didn’t think so. Statistically, nobody does. In 2014 - in a car market of 1.1 million vehicles - Toyota Prius sales numbered just 487 (down from 555 the year before). Prius V sales were higher: 722 (down from 943 previously). Prius - and hybrid generally - is a curiosity; nothing more.

The Prius first entered the market in 1997 - so the badge turns 18 this year. (The name, in case you're interested, is a Latin word meaning 'to go before'. Curious that they'd choose a word from a dead language...) Even after all this time in the market, hybrid cars are a nice idea that still hasn’t really caught on, and, frankly, they never will."

case closed ... lets move on

[betty boop]

45 minutes ago, rmpfyf said:

Well.... to better news - this is actually pretty good

 

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/autosport-news/345207/mercedes-signs-option-for-2018-19-fe-entry/

 

Good news, only electric news for merc I saw from Paris was this 500km range SUV from them and a sub brand

 

http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/mercedesbenz-generation-eq-concept-revealed-20160927-grq198.html

 

 

[proftournesol]

Before car companies can expect mainstream EV sales in profitable numbers they need to manage 2 issues - battery supply/cost, and charging infrastructure. People who street park or who live in apartments will be at a real disadvantage here. It's one thing to claim you can build a car with a claimed range, it's another thing to produce it at a competitive price point and in large numbers. Porsche concept E can make all sorts of claims because it'll cost double the rice of a Tesla and it isn't pitched at a price sensitive market, even still where will it recharge apart from in it's owner's multi-car garage and the Porsche dealership? As cars like Zoe and Leaf come with larger batteries, overnight charging from a 10A powerpoint will no longer suffice. Again what happens of you park your Zoe in the street?

[Guest rmpfyf]

6 hours ago, al said:

 

Good news, only electric news for merc I saw from Paris was this 500km range SUV from them and a sub brand

 

http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/mercedesbenz-generation-eq-concept-revealed-20160927-grq198.html

 

You missed a bit - they've sunk a good bit into ACCUmotiv recently, and are staffing that up pretty rapidly.

Their PHEVs are coming along nicely too.

[Guest rmpfyf]

5 hours ago, proftournesol said:

Before car companies can expect mainstream EV sales in profitable numbers they need to manage 2 issues - battery supply/cost, and charging infrastructure.

 

Both already largely met (in strategy or in practice).

 

5 hours ago, proftournesol said:

People who street park or who live in apartments will be at a real disadvantage here. 

 

There are already pretty good charge management systems for high density buildings.

 

5 hours ago, proftournesol said:

It's one thing to claim you can build a car with a claimed range, it's another thing to produce it at a competitive price point and in large numbers. Porsche concept E can make all sorts of claims because it'll cost double the rice of a Tesla and it isn't pitched at a price sensitive market, even still where will it recharge apart from in it's owner's multi-car garage and the Porsche dealership? 

 

Nothing wrong with the Porsche, and it'll charge anywhere. Some places it'll charge faster is all.

 

It'll be price competitive in its market. Don't hate.

 

5 hours ago, proftournesol said:

As cars like Zoe and Leaf come with larger batteries, overnight charging from a 10A powerpoint will no longer suffice. Again what happens of you park your Zoe in the street?

 

Bigger batteries don't mean faster charging unless you're emptying the pack every day and charging only at home. Life's better where you have more places to charge. Charging frequency beats battery size.

 

If cars like Zoe and Leaf come with >30kWh batteries (or physically larger batteries without a tech breakthrough) they've missed the point. They're equally designed for shared use and fast charging - the Zoe has supported DC-fast from day 1. Never intended for primarily 10A charging, though you could use it as such.

 

Biggest growth market in charging with be medium power DC (~25kw) IMHO.

[betty boop]

5 hours ago, proftournesol said:

Before car companies can expect mainstream EV sales in profitable numbers they need to manage 2 issues - battery supply/cost, and charging infrastructure. People who street park or who live in apartments will be at a real disadvantage here. It's one thing to claim you can build a car with a claimed range, it's another thing to produce it at a competitive price point and in large numbers. Porsche concept E can make all sorts of claims because it'll cost double the rice of a Tesla and it isn't pitched at a price sensitive market, even still where will it recharge apart from in it's owner's multi-car garage and the Porsche dealership? As cars like Zoe and Leaf come with larger batteries, overnight charging from a 10A powerpoint will no longer suffice. Again what happens of you park your Zoe in the street?

 

prof I raised this issue further back in the thread. what happens when you travel... where do you charge. after a 4 hour drive across tassie getting to hobart racv...I was intrigued to see an EV charge bay...ofcourse it was taken up by the RACV leaf charging self up ! how P'ed off would you be after a 4 hour drive to want to park and charge and the only charging point in the car park is taken up by the owner  

 

yes what happens if all you do is park in the street...this isn't un common...especially in the inner suburbs... I suppose ingenuity would mean people would use extension leads and such .... but where is infrastructure I saw in california nearly 10 years ago now ? where could park and charge for free e.g. at the ferry stop where people obviously come a long way. want to park their car head across to san fran come back later in the day to a charged car to make the trip back home.

 

we are just missing stuff like this ! and we  are years behind...

 

...people go on about population...well in density we are pretty clustered around our cities I see no reason why we couldnt have this kind of thing in the cities...but we just dont of its out there its not very widespread. reminds me of ageless telling me gee theres a charge point popped up at bmw head quarters...driving past I took a look...where is it ? not bleeding obvious if there. what are you supposed to do ? rock up at their reception and ask for a charge ?

 

in the paris zoe article I linked to earlier they talk of over 80000 ! charging points in europe....thats the kind of infrastructure they have to support EVs !  obviously they are working to the "build it and they will come" philosophy...while we arent building it and still expect it to come ! ....

[Guest rmpfyf]

Relax, it's coming. Charging stations aren't so expensive now and there's a *lot* of work dedicated to understanding how to manage them publicly in Australia.

 

As for 'why would anyone pay for the infrastructure'... it all comes back to fleet carbon emission legislation. Most public charge initiatives are part-funded by the EV manufacturers - when they need to sell their cars in a given market, they invest in the infrastructure to charge them - this model has worked the world over when talking seed-through-mainstream funding for EV charging infrastructure (it's actually happened here too, just one make only). 

 

Make the automakers have to have the cars and a *lot* changes. Fast  

[joz]

2 hours ago, al said:

 

prof I raised this issue further back in the thread. what happens when you travel... where do you charge. after a 4 hour drive across tassie getting to hobart racv...I was intrigued to see an EV charge bay...ofcourse it was taken up by the RACV leaf charging self up ! how P'ed off would you be after a 4 hour drive to want to park and charge and the only charging point in the car park is taken up by the owner  

 

yes what happens if all you do is park in the street...this isn't un common...especially in the inner suburbs... I suppose ingenuity would mean people would use extension leads and such .... but where is infrastructure I saw in california nearly 10 years ago now ? where could park and charge for free e.g. at the ferry stop where people obviously come a long way. want to park their car head across to san fran come back later in the day to a charged car to make the trip back home.

 

we are just missing stuff like this ! and we  are years behind...

 

...people go on about population...well in density we are pretty clustered around our cities I see no reason why we couldnt have this kind of thing in the cities...but we just dont of its out there its not very widespread. reminds me of ageless telling me gee theres a charge point popped up at bmw head quarters...driving past I took a look...where is it ? not bleeding obvious if there. what are you supposed to do ? rock up at their reception and ask for a charge ?

 

in the paris zoe article I linked to earlier they talk of over 80000 ! charging points in europe....thats the kind of infrastructure they have to support EVs !  obviously they are working to the "build it and they will come" philosophy...while we arent building it and still expect it to come ! ....

 

Lots of valid points Al,

Convenience will be a major contributor to any success locally. If things aren't they will probably stay in a niche market rather than gain mainstream momentum.

[proftournesol]

I can still see major infrastructure problems. I live in a new apartment building (<2 years old 150 apartments). I have a wall charger  for my Tesla but the building only has the spare power capacity for one more charge point. Even if both of these are converted to multiple charging, how will 150 cars physically manage this. I won't even start on rural power infrastructure. Nobody supports mass EV rollouts more than I do but there are major infrastructure hurdles outside of car fleets

[betty boop]

4 minutes ago, proftournesol said:

I can still see major infrastructure problems. I live in a new apartment building (<2 years old 150 apartments). I have a wall charger  for my Tesla but the building only has the spare power capacity for one more charge point. Even if both of these are converted to multiple charging, how will 150 cars physically manage this. I won't even start on rural power infrastructure. Nobody supports mass EV rollouts more than I do but there are major infrastructure hurdles outside of car fleets

 

prof theyre building apartment blocks for hipsters with no car parking 

 

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/five-storeys-zero-car-parks-vcat-gives-green-light-to-contentious-building-20160117-gm7kx6.html

 

all good and well if all you do is wander around hipsterville and can manage public transport which many of us cant do. apparently the plan was some sort of car share pool program. you'd think there'd be an allowance for electric cars in what is supposed to be some sort of green design. but no obviously electric cars dont feature in housing of the future...

 

anyways shows where thinking lies in town planning and what they see as necessary for infrastructure....

[LHC]

If hybrid cars are 'off topic' in this thread, and only fully electric cars are worthy, then why are no one talking about solar cars? They would make the problem of recharging infrastructure redundant, just park them in the sun. 

[betty boop]

3 minutes ago, LHC said:

If hybrid cars are 'off topic' in this thread, and only fully electric cars are worthy, then why are no one talking about solar cars? They would make the problem of recharging infrastructure redundant, just park them in the sun. 

 

this is the off topic subforum LHC, is there such a thing as a road going mass production solar car ? am unaware of one. but feel free to share. 

[LHC]

Just now, al said:

 

this is the off topic subforum LHC, is there such a thing as a road going mass production solar car ? am unaware of one. but feel free to share. 

 

No. But Prius have incorporated solar roofing into their car overseas, and claims a 10% improvement in efficiency.

 

http://www.caradvice.com.au/455161/toyota-prius-plug-in-hybrid-gets-solar-roof-option-for-europe-japan/

 

Oohs, sorry, can't mention the Prius.  

[LHC]

While we are at it, why don't some engineers come up with the idea of installing mini wind turbines on the side of the car. That way the drag around the car can be harvested to recharge the car even more. 

[betty boop]

11 minutes ago, LHC said:

 

No. But Prius have incorporated solar roofing into their car overseas, and claims a 10% improvement in efficiency.

 

http://www.caradvice.com.au/455161/toyota-prius-plug-in-hybrid-gets-solar-roof-option-for-europe-japan/

 

Oohs, sorry, can't mention the Prius.  

 

oh whoopee more lipstick on the pig  hehe

 

atleast its on the plug in hybrid  , which unfortunately we dont get but as I've said before ewould make a hell of lot more sense the current non plug in version of prius that is all thats thrown our way.

 

solar roofs why not... might catch some energy off the sun when can. unlikely to be a huge source of energy I imagine but hey every little helps

[proftournesol]

Apartments with no parking will solve the problem as they won't need charging. Fleet environments will be much easier to manage than private suburban ownership and this will be much easier than inner urban houses and apartments. Hopefully autonomous EVs will lessen the need for car ownership anyway

[Guest rmpfyf]

6 hours ago, proftournesol said:

I can still see major infrastructure problems. I live in a new apartment building (<2 years old 150 apartments). I have a wall charger  for my Tesla but the building only has the spare power capacity for one more charge point. Even if both of these are converted to multiple charging, how will 150 cars physically manage this. I won't even start on rural power infrastructure. Nobody supports mass EV rollouts more than I do but there are major infrastructure hurdles outside of car fleets

 

Highly unlikely. 

 

If your apartment building can only support another wall connector, you're effectively suggesting that two people buying a heater and turning it on at the same time in winter whilst you're charging your car will overload everything.

 

It's possible to run 150 cars off a 400kVA feed relatively comfortably with good management, and a 400kVA feed for an apartment is not unmanageable cost for an apartment complex with ~150 apartments. This has been done before (if you wish, PM me offline and I'm happy to go through it).

 

Right now there's no incentive for EV manufacturers to get involved as there's no incentive for EV manufacturers. 

 

The same arguments about rural etc were made xxx years ago about ICE cars. It's all surmountable with demand and reason - both of which don't yet exist, but can and will in time.

 

Anyone waiting for charging stations to appear before the cars can turn up is going to be waiting a long while.

 

6 hours ago, al said:

anyways shows where thinking lies in town planning and what they see as necessary for infrastructure....

 

Easy there. The City of Moreland (where that development's cited) is probably the most forwards-thinking EV-infrastructure municipality in Australia - if you want to know the rest of that story and what the implications are for EV rollout, call or write in. The gent running relevant EV initiatives is awesome - scope's bigger than just that article.

 

6 hours ago, LHC said:

While we are at it, why don't some engineers come up with the idea of installing mini wind turbines on the side of the car. That way the drag around the car can be harvested to recharge the car even more. 

 

Tried, awful. Doesn't work.

 

[proftournesol]

8 hours ago, LHC said:

While we are at it, why don't some engineers come up with the idea of installing mini wind turbines on the side of the car. That way the drag around the car can be harvested to recharge the car even more. 

Because in order to be useful it would have to defy the laws of physics and become a perpetual motion machine. The drag created by an external turbine would consume more energy that any energy that it generated

[proftournesol]

2 hours ago, rmpfyf said:

 

Highly unlikely. 

 

If your apartment building can only support another wall connector, you're effectively suggesting that two people buying a heater and turning it on at the same time in winter whilst you're charging your car will overload everything.

 

It's possible to run 150 cars off a 400kVA feed relatively comfortably with good management, and a 400kVA feed for an apartment is not unmanageable cost for an apartment complex with ~150 apartments. This has been done before (if you wish, PM me offline and I'm happy to go through it).

 

 

 

The apartment building can support infinite connections, but only one additional one without significant electrical work. The third resident that wants to install a connector will be faced with that cost.

Certainly anything can be achieved with good will and determination and common sense, however we are talking about Australia 2016, there are none of these at a decision making level

[proftournesol]

Porsche understand, Mercedes doesn't.

Quote

Porsche Working On High Power Charger Network For Mission E

Steve Hanley

Tesla is the leader when it comes to building a network of high power chargers for its customers, but now Porsche says it is working on a similar idea for its Mission E all wheel drive electric sports car. Porsche boss Oliver Blume tells Top Gear: “We are in contact with other manufacturers and suppliers around the world to build a fast-charging network. Everybody has the same need. It sounds easy but getting the details agreed is hard. We already have the clear technical concept. It can even work with Teslas, with an adapter.”

At the Paris auto show this week, Porsche said progress on the Mission E is happening on schedule. The car reportedly will have 600 horsepower and be capable of dashing to 60 mph in 3.5 seconds. “The design will be very close to the concept,” said Blume. “We are working on typical Porsche features – dynamics, electric range. We’re meeting our targets from Frankfurt.”

One of those targets is the ability to add about 250 miles of range in as little as 15 minutes. That will represent 80% of the Mission E’s stated range of 310 miles on a full battery charge. To make that happen will require a charger with at least 150 kW of power. That is more than Tesla’s most powerful Supercharger, which tops out at 135 kW.

 

 

Blume says he is reaching out to other manufacturers to see if they are interested in working on fast charger infrastructure. In Paris, Mercedes boss Dieter Zetsche. owner of the most luxuriant mustache in the auto business,  acknowledged, “We are in talks with them, but the next question is do we co-operate on building power stations?” That suggests that Mercedes may have an interest in working with Porsche on the technical standards needed for such high power chargers but may be less interested in investing in the infrastructure.

One would think that if Tesla can afford a worldwide network of Superchargers, Mercedes Benz could, but on the other hand, no major car company owns a string of gas stations. Perhaps Mercedes just doesn’t think it is up to it to make sure the drivers of its electric cars have a place to recharge them. In any event, agreeing on standards represents a major step forward.

In addition to his remarks about the high power charging for the Mission E, Blume also told the press in Paris that his company has no immediate plans to produce a self driving version of the Mission E. He does agree the car should have some some autonomous features so the driver can read a newspaper in traffic or have the car park itself. But when it comes to fully autonomous driving, a Porsche is meant to be driven. End of story.

Source: Teslarati

 

 

Tags: 150 kW charger, 4 door sports car, 80% charge in 15 minutes, electric car, high power charger, Mercedes-Benz, Porsche Mission E, Tesla

About the Author

Steve Hanley I have been a car nut since the days when Rob Walker and Henry N. Manney, III graced the pages of Road & Track. Today, I use my trusty Miata for TSD rallies and occasional track days at Lime Rock and Watkins Glen. If it moves on wheels, I'm interested in it. Please follow me on Google + and Twitter.

 

[Guest rmpfyf]

6 hours ago, proftournesol said:

The apartment building can support infinite connections, but only one additional one without significant electrical work. The third resident that wants to install a connector will be faced with that cost.

Certainly anything can be achieved with good will and determination and common sense, however we are talking about Australia 2016, there are none of these at a decision making level

 

Prof, this has been done many times before. There are ways around this. Not least that if three of you want to charge, unless you're each trying to put in >20kWh/day average, you're fine.

 

6 hours ago, proftournesol said:

Porsche understand, Mercedes doesn't.

 

So wrong. Crap article, BTW.

[proftournesol]

There are technical ways around it but getting residents to share parking spots, move their car when charged etc is going to be a nightmare. 

 

[Briz Vegas]

Green star gives you brownie points for providing EV parking spots but green star residential hasn't exactly taken off. This is kind of academic as only the commercial market has really taken to green star in practice.

 

I am old fashioned in that I actually put my car in the garage so I would charge an EV at home 99 times out of 100. On street does pose a challenge. It's a nice excuse for the masses to ignore the technology ( rather than demand a solution).  Some solution run from the property boundary might help but some folks can't even park in front of their home, making any car ownership problematic.