Guest Muon Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 I thought the Prius was a fashion piece for those that wanted to look concerned without really being so. *shrugs*
Guest rmpfyf Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 2 minutes ago, al said: rmp I am going to pass quite frankly, infact I think i will just leave this thread purely for you as no real interest of page upon of page of talking about a hybrid prius I have absolutely no interest in and yet we go on and go on and you keep wanting to engage me on. all yours ... Don't go that easily. I'm not trying to convince you to buy one. You've suggested - in some fairly coarse language at times - that it's an irrelevant car. You've mentioned the electric range being pitiful - which isn't the point of any non-plugin hybrid - you've failed to see the point of the car to the environment and labelled the technology as irrelevant. You've attacked it. You've done this repeatedly in an electric vehicle thread. I'd disagree. I've been fortunate enough to have worked on electric vehicles, and to have dealt in policy and strategy for alt tech vehicles. Prius! It's the car we rifle through for parts to start other projects and prototypes. The CAN bus that so many engineers have tried to reverse engineer to work out just what it takes to make a roadgoing EV tick. The car we've instrumented the crap out of to understand what's what. The performance benchmark for how a hybrid or electric powertrain should stop, start and go. Did you know it takes roughly four vehicle generations for any new automotive technology to become mainstream? Prius is in it's fourth generation now. You can get a pretty good hybrid Camry these days without 90% of the Prius weirdness. Or you can buy a Mazda with Skyactiv tech, or an anything with vehicle stop-start, or cars with electric ancillaries, or energy recovery in some forms, or lean-burn engines, or properly electric vehicles, or... ...it goes on and on. A lot of it really all did start with the Prius. I don't disagree that the Prius here is too expensive, a weird size for most anyone that wants a car in Australia, and that in an age where hybrid tech is de rigueur, that the Prius isn't as necessary or impactful anymore. But to anyone that's worked on EVs, the Prius is the daddy. One of the ones where it started. And if you got through Toyota's sustainable mobility docs - many are freely available online - Toyota sees hybrid as just one option. PHEV, EV, FCV are all viable options to Toyota. Toyota just deals with identifying energy strategy on long timescales, and in investing in solutions to meet social and market needs. Hence it has fingers in every pie, and as usual, will lag-lead at it's own pace unless the sky falls and there's a degree from the top to go nuts in any one direction (as happened with the Prius). The funny thing is that Toyota's hybrid tech actually started life as a Packard patent. You started this thread, it's a good thread. If there's any chance I can change your mind to say a few nice things about the Prius - to have some allowance for the fact that without the Prius there's not much for modern EVs - I think it'd be a good thing. Because saying the Prius is irrelevant is like saying the EV-1 or the Volt is irrelevant... when they're actually all very important in the context of electric cars. I think it's commendable that Toyota continues to build it as a hybrid tech flagship, albeit in smaller numbers. I wouldn't buy one either, but I can respect it. Try
Guest rmpfyf Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 12 minutes ago, Muon said: I thought the Prius was a fashion piece for those that wanted to look concerned without really being so. *shrugs* Ha
Guest Muon Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 Hay, a lot of the Hollywood A listers bought them
Guest rmpfyf Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 2 minutes ago, Muon said: Hay, a lot of the Hollywood A listers bought them This concerned me. Sandra Bullock at the time was among the throng. I quite liked Sandra Bullock at the time. She sold a 911 Turbo to buy a Prius. I couldn't look at her the same way after that!
rantan Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 (edited) Sheesh! She is definitely in need of prolonged and intensive cognitive therapy and behaviour modification. I will also never see her the same way again. A Prius eh ? How does one do a barf smiley? Edited October 10, 2016 by rantan 1
Guest Muon Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 I still like Sandra, in spite of her automotive choices, except now she may have trouble staying above 50mph. Sorry, couldn't help tossing in a 'Speed' reference
Guest rmpfyf Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 I know, I know. Remember that bit in Demolition Man? Loved that bit in Demolition man. "Do you know what this is, Huxley?" "AN OLDSMOBILE 442... WITH BUCKET SEATS!" I had high expectations
proftournesol Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 1 hour ago, Muon said: I thought the Prius was a fashion piece for those that wanted to look concerned without really being so. *shrugs* A a transitional car that has developed some useful technology on the way to full EVs. Irrelevant in world market terms, helpful in starting to change customer's mindset around what is practically possible 2
LHC Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 2 hours ago, al said: not sure what relevance this has to electric cars at all, perhaps go post it on some hardline greeny website if want to stir up the hornets LHC. I don't meant to stir anything up. I just want to expose a possible source of Cadogan's disdain for the P*****. It is easy to search his website to find similarly disparaging remarks about the BMW i8 and the Tesla, the people who buys them, and the EV segment in general. 1
Guest rmpfyf Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 9 minutes ago, proftournesol said: Irrelevant in world market terms, helpful in starting to change customer's mindset around what is practically possible Easy there - it's done over 100k units/year since 2004 globally (over 500k in 2010 alone) - hardly irrelevant. Starting to sell less now which is a good thing in that there's choice and competition.
proftournesol Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 It's similar to the Model S in the sense that it's sales are a pin prick in global terms but it's influence has greatly exceeded it's sales 1
Guest rmpfyf Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 1 minute ago, proftournesol said: It's similar to the Model S in the sense that it's sales are a pin prick in global terms but it's influence has greatly exceeded it's sales Similar, though I wouldn't ascribe the Model S the same degree of success... it's about a order of magnitude lesser, and honestly it's a *lot* harder to make cheaper cars. Model 3, Chevy Bolt, etc - different story. EVs are coming of age and the future's looking bright, IMHO.
proftournesol Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 I think that the Model 3 has been even more influential than the Model S. The S has made EVs sexy and that makes them easy for every maker to sell them. It has made the Tesla brand sexy but the scale of the pre-orders for the Model 3 has made the industry pay attention and hasten transition to EVs. Of course the motor industry was working on EVs anyway but they were much less ambitious until the Model 3 order books opened 1
Guest Muon Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 It's sad in my eyes when sales numbers alone dictate what is good or not.
Guest rmpfyf Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 Just now, proftournesol said: I think that the Model 3 has been even more influential than the Model S. The S has made EVs sexy and that makes them easy for every maker to sell them. It has made the Tesla brand sexy but the scale of the pre-orders for the Model 3 has made the industry pay attention and hasten transition to EVs. Of course the motor industry was working on EVs anyway but they were much less ambitious until the Model 3 order books opened Started before that - thank another Tesla (that gets too forgotten too quickly IMHO) - the Roadster. Rumor has it GM's management tried one, sacked an engineering team shortly thereafter and started the Volt project at warp speed. The rest is history. 2 minutes ago, Muon said: It's sad in my eyes when sales numbers alone dictate what is good or not. Which is why I still champion the Prius, even as sales inevitably fall. It's nice to get into a car and know quickly whether the engineers involved gave a toss or not.
proftournesol Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 The Roadster was an important car but didn't break through public consciousness like the Model S has. It clearly had an important influence on the industry though 1
rantan Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 4 minutes ago, rmpfyf said: Which is why I still champion the Prius, even as sales inevitably fall. It's nice to get into a car and know quickly whether the engineers involved gave a toss or not. When I tried the Prius, I had this over arching feeling that this car was a token effort and needed far more development. Strangely, although it isn't my type of car at all, I thought the hybrid Camry was a far better effort, but I still wouldn't consider buying either one as they are still white-goods-on-wheels IMO 1
Guest rmpfyf Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 1 hour ago, rantan said: When I tried the Prius, I had this over arching feeling that this car was a token effort and needed far more development. Strangely, although it isn't my type of car at all, I thought the hybrid Camry was a far better effort, but I still wouldn't consider buying either one as they are still white-goods-on-wheels IMO Hybrid Camry is a friggn awesome car for the money. NVH levels are amazing. The superseded model in the upper spec is an excellent buy... essentially a cheap Lexus. And FWIW here on SNA, the JBL stereo in it - against a very low noise floor - is awesome. A great buy for the money. So far as being a Toyota goes (white goods on wheels)... it's the best Toyota going. Same engine with a direct-injection head is on the IS300h - has a huge electric motor by comparison and RWD (I just don't like the way it handles IMHO). Seems they're going to break free of all that stick-EV-bits-on-and-an-Atkinson-cycle-engine stuff and possibly give us a hybrid car people will want to drive... interested to see what comes of the new Supra. 1 hour ago, proftournesol said: The Roadster was an important car but didn't break through public consciousness like the Model S has. It clearly had an important influence on the industry though Very important. From an industry perspective... it was insane driving one for the first time. Appreciate that leading up to Roadster, there was also something of a knowledge and progress deficit in the industry at the time, because after the whole CARB mandate (the 'killing' of the electric car, circa 2003) those with licenses for what was the best battery tech at the time, NiMh, basically put restrictions on (a) who could have the batteries and (b) what size you could make packs in. It was made almost legally impossible to get an EV-sized battery pack into production. NiMh has been limited since to hybrid pack sizes. It was either lead-acid (huge, heavy) or wait for a tech breakthrough. Lithium-ion of course existed, but few people had really tried a car, and cells didn't really come in a variety of sizes - there was random stuff and laptop-type batteries, and no one was really going to use >6k of them in a car... were they? And if so... how the hell were they going to control them? Cool them? Charge them? Assemble them (let alone profitably)? So few companies were really doing much of significance. My first drive was in 2010 and many industry people had a similar story. You got in and could spot all the Elise links pretty easily. The second you pushed over eight tenths in corners there was an acute reminder that where ~200kg of motor was there was now ~600kg of EV powertrain. It wasn't a Lotus, that's for sure. But it has so much sheer speed in a straight line in a way that was totally effortless. Pinned it the first time and I remember '****, that's not like an Elise!' And it did it again and again. The drivetrain was pretty good. That wasn't expected for a first-time company. The straightline fun was so good - so was the refinement - that you very quickly got the impression that whilst this was a different way of enjoying your car, that people would like it a lot, even car enthusiasts, and even people who weren't so excited about cars. They had a lot of stuff in there at the time that was pretty radical - a proper digital motor controller with their own IP, their own power electronics, a very small motor with a lot of saturation that wouldn't have been so easy to control, they had a liquid-cooled battery with a thermal system that actually worked, they had their own traction control, they had very good regen (particularly in corners). None of these things are very easy and really there weren't (AFAIK) any attempts out there for sale that actually did the lot or that well. Traditional auto means buying in most of these bits and less indigenous development, but many of these bits couldn't even be sourced at the time - it really all had to be done internally. This wasn't heard of among the majors (principally because it costs a shedload). So you went in hearing rumours about the car's features thinking it probably wasn't possible, and a half hour later you started to get some appreciation for the necessity of different development and supply chain models, and some confidence that it was going to turn out OK. And the rest of it just worked like a car should. People think a Roadster is really way-out there and a Model S is somehow housetrained by comparison, but asides from the pushbutton selector for your gears and the display... it's actually very normal. I've sat in an EV1 (unfortunately a deactivated one) - that's very cool but extremely different - the drive experience in a Roadster was entirely accessible in a relevant way. So you can imagine that to be in industry and drive it and discover that it actually worked properly, and that to peek under the hood and find that it was actually engineered properly, this gave big confidence in the future of EVs. It was now obviously completely possible.
Super Mustud Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 Reading this thread makes me want to try a Prius just to understand what all the disdain is about. I have had great respect for Toyota engineering and manufacturing ever since the original shovel nosed Corona showed you didn't need a smelly Beetle to have a car that was vaguely reliable. OT, but the car I would really like these days is one of the original Californian Mokes.
Briz Vegas Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 (edited) 12 hours ago, rmpfyf said: Cadogan This article made me laugh but he is 90% correct ( edit: ok maybe thatsvbeing generous), although he also misses some key points while adding detours. Ignore the " insults", it's just his MO. He gets some key bits wrong, greenies like me ( we are all individuals with a unique perspective) know we are all driven by self interest. We are not deluded that our environment is benign. We need a proper solution and it may require some hard decisions. Electric cars are not the solution of themselves and TBA supercars like a model s are part of the problem, as is unbounded population growth. It's a partially informed opinion at best but he at least recognises the need for the best brains on the problem and politicians ready to make a few very hard career ending decisions ( at least for any pioneers)......oh, yeah, he missed that bit or I skipped it. We are smart enough, but unfortunately evolution has not equipped us to self regulate ( other than wars and no one should want that, but that and famine is the greenies greatest fear). Edited October 10, 2016 by Briz Vegas 1
proftournesol Posted October 11, 2016 Posted October 11, 2016 Plans for an EV charge point in every new or refurbished home in Europe after 2019. Nothing that progressive is likely to happen here of course 1
Guest rmpfyf Posted October 11, 2016 Posted October 11, 2016 10 hours ago, Briz Vegas said: This article made me laugh but he is 90% correct ( edit: ok maybe thatsvbeing generous), although he also misses some key points while adding detours. Ignore the " insults", it's just his MO. He gets some key bits wrong, greenies like me ( we are all individuals with a unique perspective) know we are all driven by self interest. We are not deluded that our environment is benign. We need a proper solution and it may require some hard decisions. Electric cars are not the solution of themselves and TBA supercars like a model s are part of the problem, as is unbounded population growth. It's a partially informed opinion at best but he at least recognises the need for the best brains on the problem and politicians ready to make a few very hard career ending decisions ( at least for any pioneers)......oh, yeah, he missed that bit or I skipped it. We are smart enough, but unfortunately evolution has not equipped us to self regulate ( other than wars and no one should want that, but that and famine is the greenies greatest fear). Briz, I agree with you save the Cadogan bit. There's not a single intelligent person in industry (and there are honestly many) that believe that the answer to sustainability - or societal energy problems in general - will come as a single silver bullet. Bringing up potential solutions and attempt to prolifically hunt them down as singular solutions with bollocks for ammunition is an intellectually limited point of view that undermines what's conveyed - and Mr Cadogan is smart enough to know this. It's a timbre that assumes the reader is stupid, and needs stupefy them to completely agree with him. Because much like most of Cadogan's posts It's stylised criticism for the sake of criticism. It's more a social experiment with the reader than any honest attempt to debate or present issue. There no point nor space to debate or discuss an irrational stream of barely-directed bile. Irrespective of how right anyone is or isn't, turning the internet into a platform to sell hate pulls the trigger on a race to the bottom in any discussion. Hatred isn't a brand, it's just hatred. And frankly, he's often not right. Bad enough he comes across as a complete nob. They're my thoughts on John Cadogan.
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