Guest rmpfyf Posted May 11, 2017 Posted May 11, 2017 12 minutes ago, Briz Vegas said: I would just get an electric bike but you would end up as a bonnet ornament on someone's mommy truck. True sustainability should be about having as much car as you need. Currently I am driving a loaner Mitsubishi mirage (long story). It's not great but it's actually fine about town. Fuel wise it does not help however, same MGP as my car and it has 100nm vs 230nm in mine at half revs. Both are 1.2 3 cylinder, a world apart in refinement/performance but a world apart in price as well. My accountant would have me driving the mirage for sure. Don't knock the Mirage mate. I had an epic duel around Philip Island with one once (I was in a Suzuki Swift). They make excellent budget track cars True about the propensity to end up on someone's bonnet, but having been lucky enough to ride a Brammo Empulse before they were bought out by Polaris... 'twas quite a lot of fun in a SV650 sort of way. The new ones are apparently better and they're competition's meant to be quite good also. Terrific fun and very convenient... if I gave you one you might not hand it back!
Rob181 Posted May 12, 2017 Posted May 12, 2017 Would love to ride an electric bike...something with the go & handling of a 600 sports bike would be sensational...
Guest rmpfyf Posted May 12, 2017 Posted May 12, 2017 2 hours ago, Rob181 said: Would love to ride an electric bike...something with the go & handling of a 600 sports bike would be sensational... 'Twas more a SV650 experience... though when Mission Motorcycles was around, the Mission R/RS was amazing. Sadly bankruptcy. http://www.autoblog.com/2015/09/14/mission-motorcycles-powers-down-files-for-bankruptcy/ I did get to see it, the Brammo track bike, an earlier version of a Motoczysz ep1c and a few others around Laguna Seca. All were quick in places you didn't expect. Sadly Mission folded, Brammo was acquired, Motoczysz's founder passed away (a great shame - super creative that took on Honda at the Isle of Man electric race and won)... all went into a lull there for a bit. Honda continues with the Mugen Shinden, and Lightning Motorcycles (http://lightningmotorcycle.com/) is making a bit of a splash though!
proftournesol Posted May 18, 2017 Posted May 18, 2017 Good news on long-term EV battery life Quote Tesla Model S battery degradation data This entry was posted on January 24, 2015 by Steinbuch, in Automotive & Mobility, Research and tagged automotive, battery degradation, battery EV, degradation, electrical vehicles, range, range prediction, Tesla, Tesla Model S. Bookmark the permalink. Updated: May 15, 2017. Tesla Motors provides an 8-year infinite mile battery failure warranty but it doesn’t cover degradation. Therefore it is highly relevant for every Tesla driver to know what to expect of the degradation of the capacity over time, because it is equivalent to the range of your car. In the Netherlands, Merijn Coumans is updating on a regular basis, via the Dutch-Belgium Tesla Forum, a fileof owners’ data, created by Matteo. The most recent (May 15, 2017) version of the results is displayed below. Detailed explanations are also in the google doc file, as well as at the end of this blogpost. The new files also have data input possibilities for USA and other non-km (i.e. miles) drivers. In the figure the percentage of range loss is shown on the vertical axis. The horizontal axis displays the distance (in km) driven with the vehicles. The red fitted line has a slope above 60.000 km of 1% per 45.000 km. On average the batteries have 92% remaining at 240.000 km. If the linear behavior would continue, then the ‘lifetime’ (still 80% capacity left) can be calculated as follows: 92-80 = 12% times 45.000 km = 540.000 km, plus 240.000 km, gives 780.000 km! Note that a ICE car has a average lifetime of 220.000… And remember: if an ICE fails after say 300.000 km, you have a problem. The battery in a Tesla EV after the suggested 780.000 km (ok, lets take 500.000 km, still great!) still has 80% capacity left! To put in into perspective, on a 0-100% scale, it looks like this: The way to measure this is to do a full charge (100%) and then check the EPA rated range (in North America) or Typical range (in Europe and Asia/Pacific). In the plot, these numbers are then compared to the range numbers the car displayed when it was new. For example, for the 85 kWh Model S85 variant, this is about 400 km typical range or 265 mi EPA rated range. Even though this is mostly a reliable method, sometimes the computer in the car can’t accurately estimate how much energy the battery holds and might display an inaccurate range number. To improve accuracy, it is a good idea to run down the battery to almost empty and then charge to 100%, once a month. This is known as rebalancing the battery. However, the battery shouldn’t be left at 0% or 100% for more than 2 hours. The data collected by Merijn, also include how many Supercharger visits were done, among other details. See the forum for more information, or if you want to upload your data. Besides Mileage vs Remaining Range, the file includes two other charts: Charge Cycles vs Remaining Range and Battery Age vs Remaining Range. From literature and research we know typically that 80% of battery capacity remains after 1000-2000 full cycles, strongly dependent on the temperature of the batteries. The data below support these numbers. Here is a recent update from the USA with almost 130000 miles driven as max. From the USA+ drivers I could find the following previous data of the Plug in America Survey, and used it to generate the following picture: I compared all provided data with the EPA 265 miles number for the 85kWh Model S and to the 210 miles EPA number for the 60 kWh models. It is not clear of course how trustworthy this data is, and how peoples measured.. If you like the km version, here it is: The plot below is from UK-manufactured Nissan Leafs, 2013 24kWh models, thanks to http://speakev.com forum users and via Simon Canfer. Links on battery degradation: Here are some plots from 2013 From a Tesla Blogger A nice video on battery degradation can be found here. How to prolong Lithium-based batteries? Some data from 2013 from the Tesla Forum Here is a very nice report on the Tesla Roadster by Plug-in America, one result is the following one, based on 126 vehicles: —– here are some of the notes supporting the data at the top of this blogpost: Notes ? These charts are updated every time there is a new entry. All charts on this page show entries from all locations. ? The trendlines are generated by the chart. Hover over the trendline to see the current formula. ? When range mode is on, the displayed range in the car increases a few miles or km. For all calculations, this chart uses range numbers with range mode on because this statement by Jerome Guillen: “EPA testing is [done] with range mode on, given that it is assumed customers will use that function when they want to drive the farthest.” In other words, because the range scores are achieved with range mode on, it is more accurate to do calculations based on range numbers when range mode is on. But users don’t have to turn on range mode just to read their 100% charged range. The chart will calculate that accurately. A video showing how range mode effects displayed range Youtube ? A cycle is when multiple percentage charges add up to 100%. For example charging 5 times from 70% to 90% is 1 cycle. Professor Jeff Dahn who is an expert on Tesla batteries said the following when responding to a question by a Tesla owner: Quote: “If you charge from 30% to 70% 150 times or from 10% to 70% 100 times, the ageing of the battery will be approximately the same”. Source A video of Prof Dahn comparing Model S battery to other EVs Youtube ? If you don’t see your name on cycles chart, go back to data entry and enter lifetime average energy consumption (Wh/km or Wh/mi). Replacement Batteries If you have a replacement battery, don’t be surprised if you don’t recognise the mileage and battery age numbers you see above. These numbers are calculated for your replacement battery. They are different than your car mileage or vehicle age. If you want to know more about how this calculation is done, read on. Otherwise this might be too much detail. Let’s assume somebody entered this data: ? Mileage: 30,000 km ? At what km did you replace battery? 24,000 km ? What happened to typical range after replacement? Improved 5 km ? Typical Range at 100% charge: 390 km ? Ownership duration: 350 days Mileage calculation for replacement battery: If the battery hadn’t been replaced, typical range would be 390-5= 385 km on the old battery at 30,000 km. If 30,000 km equals to 400-385 km range loss then X km equals to 400-390 km range loss Cross multiply. X= 30,000 * (400-390) / (400-385) = 30,000 * 10 / 15 = 20,000 km. The chart will display 20,000 km ? Why does the chart display 20,000 km even though actual mileage on the replacement battery is only 30,000-24,000= 6,000 km? Because this replacement battery was refurbished and had some mileage on it. ? Why does the chart display 20,000 km even though mileage on the car is 30,000 km? Because the chart displays mileage on the current battery not on the car and it has calculated that the replacement battery has 20,000 km mileage on it. ? How would the chart calculate age on the replacement battery? Age = 350 * (400-390) / (400-385) = 350 * 10 / 15 = 233 days ? What mileage would the chart show if the replacement battery still had 400 km range? Even though the calculation would result in zero miles (X= 30,000 * (400-400) / (400-395) = 30,000 * 0 / 5 = 0 km) the chart recognises that the calculation shouldn’t be less than what the user reported. In this case odometer shows 30,000, replacement happened at 24,000. Therefore mileage on the replacement battery is at least 6,000 km. Therefore the chart would display 6,000 km. The age calculation for the replacement battery would result in zero days too because the typical range is still 400 km (same as a new battery). Of course zero days would be incorrect too because the battery has 6000 km on it. Again the chart wouldn’t use zero and would calculate the time that corresponds to 6000 km mileage as follows: If 30,000 km equals to 350 days Then 6,000 km equals to X days X= 6,000*350/30,000= 70 days Updates ? 30 July 2015: The Mileage Chart now switches between km and miles depending on location of selected username. We have now more entries from USA than before. So I thought this would be useful. Matteo ? 11 Feb 2016: The trendline for the first chart (Mileage vs Remaining range chart) has been updated. The old trendline was a third order polynomial trendline. It worked fine for 0-120,000 km where there are lots of entries but after there were no more entries it showed a sharp drop. The new trendline is polynomial until the data ends but linear afterwards. Like the old trendline this new trendline is also calculated automatically by the chart and updates when there are new entries. Matteo ? 9 Aug 2016: I added a script that clears the username selection in E1 every 2 hours. Matteo 1
Guest rmpfyf Posted May 18, 2017 Posted May 18, 2017 Nice pickup. Big differences in cars that look after their batteries thermally (Tesla, Volt, etc) and those that don't (Leaf).
proftournesol Posted May 18, 2017 Posted May 18, 2017 58 minutes ago, rmpfyf said: Nice pickup. Big differences in cars that look after their batteries thermally (Tesla, Volt, etc) and those that don't (Leaf). Yes, if I was reincarnated as a battery I'd hope that it was in Tesla or a Volt rather than a mobile phone or laptop 2
Guest rmpfyf Posted May 18, 2017 Posted May 18, 2017 3 hours ago, proftournesol said: Yes, if I was reincarnated as a battery I'd hope that it was in Tesla or a Volt rather than a mobile phone or laptop Or a house... much worse duty cycle in that. There's a good second life for EV batteries that've been looked after properly.
Briz Vegas Posted May 21, 2017 Posted May 21, 2017 (edited) This is the sort of thing I have been advocating locally. Electric scooter sharing rather than car sharing. - no pollution at tail pipe ( with grid getting greener over time) - helmets on the bikes ( don't have to bring your own, although you would want something between you and it, like a hygienic sleeve or the like) - share scheme, not buy and have to find somewhere to put it. - no peddling in the Queensland summer heat - much less impact on street parking, something Councils are uber precious about because rate payers are uber precious about it. - no need for a special license - right tool for the job most of the time. I don't need a three ton truck to get me and my lunchbox to and from work for example https://cleantechnica.com/2017/05/19/coup-smart-scooter-sharing-service-start-paris-600-gogoro-escooters/ Edited May 21, 2017 by Briz Vegas 1
Briz Vegas Posted May 22, 2017 Posted May 22, 2017 Baby steps. Its so slow that its painfull but at least something is being done. Australian federal government money finally supports electric vehicle uptake. Don't get too excited. Not by direct incentives but by financing the Electric Vehicle Council via ARENA money. Most of the big players are involved. http://reneweconomy.com.au/electric-vehicles-big-energy-join-big-auto-drive-aus-ev-uptake-86083/ 1
betty boop Posted May 22, 2017 Author Posted May 22, 2017 5 minutes ago, Briz Vegas said: Baby steps. Its so slow that its painfull but at least something is being done. Australian federal government money finally supports electric vehicle uptake. Don't get too excited. Not by direct incentives but by financing the Electric Vehicle Council via ARENA money. Most of the big players are involved. http://reneweconomy.com.au/electric-vehicles-big-energy-join-big-auto-drive-aus-ev-uptake-86083/ good to see something... but if anything it shows how pitiful the electric car market is right now. 219 cars in total...vs 1.14 million ! petrol electric and hybrid cars people bought instead. people arent stoopid ! and yes something has to be done if they want people to take up electric. we need better more suitable car options. and better infrastructure etc and something that makes more sense. which if clearly doesnt now. heck people bought 363,000 diesel vehicles instead ! and this even with diesel gate and all the bad press etc ! gives some perspective.... as far as big players being involved... they arent as long as they dont have a toe in the water. most if not all dont right now... so they need to get off their butts collectively as well. particularly the likes of renault and GM who actually have good electric options but arent bringing them in right now. 1
proftournesol Posted May 22, 2017 Posted May 22, 2017 Good to see something, if they wanted to do something they could start by exempting the pro rata battery price from the luxury car tax. Most other incentives are up to State Governments 1
Guest Posted May 22, 2017 Posted May 22, 2017 https://reneweconomy.com.au/death-spiral-for-cars-by-2030-you-probably-wont-own-one-93626/
Briz Vegas Posted May 22, 2017 Posted May 22, 2017 Last week in Brisbane i saw an Uber with a self driving car unit on the roof, aTesla electric car, a group of tourists on those stupid segway things, electric skateboards, a single wheel electric thing, bicycle share bikes and people walking. Mobility as we know it certainly seems to be diversifying. i think it will take longer in Australia but there is going to be a steady growth in different modes of getting around, like car share and similar solutions. 1
betty boop Posted May 22, 2017 Author Posted May 22, 2017 10 minutes ago, Briz Vegas said: Last week in Brisbane i saw an Uber with a self driving car unit on the roof, aTesla electric car, a group of tourists on those stupid segway things, electric skateboards, a single wheel electric thing, bicycle share bikes and people walking. Mobility as we know it certainly seems to be diversifying. i think it will take longer in Australia but there is going to be a steady growth in different modes of getting around, like car share and similar solutions. when in california 10 years ago people were gong on segways... where myself and a few other stupid aussies were riding to work on our bikes... got overtaken by one of those segway things ! in some ways I thought the california thing a bit bizarre if so serious about saving energy why wouldn't you ride your bike instead of those silly segway things. there was no public transport to speak off. no bike lanes nothing. there was a bike shop in town but only stupid aussies riding their bikes on the roads car share even here has been around for donkeys about 10 years atleast...same wiht those casual hire schemes. but have never bothered with those. why would you they re quite costly when can walk in and hire a car for a day for $30 or so instead we do live in wide brown land though and things like bikes and seaways and casual hire and car share and such really only much sense in inner city areas...head outwards and wont unfortunately have much relevance. 1
proftournesol Posted May 22, 2017 Posted May 22, 2017 2 hours ago, al said: good to see something... but if anything it shows how pitiful the electric car market is right now. 219 cars in total...vs 1.14 million ! petrol electric and hybrid cars people bought instead. people arent stoopid ! and yes something has to be done if they want people to take up electric. we need better more suitable car options. and better infrastructure etc and something that makes more sense. which if clearly doesnt now. heck people bought 363,000 diesel vehicles instead ! and this even with diesel gate and all the bad press etc ! gives some perspective.... as far as big players being involved... they arent as long as they dont have a toe in the water. most if not all dont right now... so they need to get off their butts collectively as well. particularly the likes of renault and GM who actually have good electric options but arent bringing them in right now. 219 EVs reported sold because Tesla don't publish their sales figures. Local Tesla owners have documented over 1000 sales in 2016, if you go look in the pre-delivery area in Tesla Richmond its packed full of Model Xs. Sure, its way less that ICE and hybrid but in their price range the Model X and S are a big player. It'll all change once the Model 3, Ioniq and the Zoe arrives 1
betty boop Posted May 22, 2017 Author Posted May 22, 2017 5 minutes ago, proftournesol said: 219 EVs reported sold because Tesla don't publish their sales figures. Local Tesla owners have documented over 1000 sales in 2016, if you go look in the pre-delivery area in Tesla Richmond its packed full of Model Xs. Sure, its way less that ICE and hybrid but in their price range the Model X and S are a big player. It'll all change once the Model 3, Ioniq and the Zoe arrives be interesting once something like the zoe gets here as its really a whole another market than where tesla play. i wish nissan would also get off their butts with the leaf 2 as with the chevvy bolt. these are kind of cars needed in the market place it get larger volumes of people interested. the australian market place has changed greatly with even 10 ! + years ago the mazda 3 as a small car being the top seller. people just arent buying big huge cars anymore. 1
proftournesol Posted May 22, 2017 Posted May 22, 2017 The Bolt will never be made in RHD GM will only produce limited numbers of them in the uS as they are a compliance car unfortunately. Anecdotally I can tell you with the interest I've had in my Model S I would expect the new wave of affordable EVs to sell like hot cakes. 1
betty boop Posted May 22, 2017 Author Posted May 22, 2017 5 minutes ago, proftournesol said: The Bolt will never be made in RHD GM will only produce limited numbers of them in the uS as they are a compliance car unfortunately. Anecdotally I can tell you with the interest I've had in my Model S I would expect the new wave of affordable EVs to sell like hot cakes. sure thing. if they indeed price affordably. if they hike it up like they did with the leaf. they'll just rot on the car lots for years as the leafs have, and be trying to flog 4 year old cars for massive discounts and people still wont want them ! like the one below, 2012 release 5 years later ... still trying to be sold as "new" https://www.carsales.com.au/dealer/details/Nissan-LEAF-2012/OAG-AD-14587488/?Cr=1 who is going to buy it at that price ! 1
Briz Vegas Posted May 22, 2017 Posted May 22, 2017 Problem with those older Leafs is the battery. You need the newer lizard battery as it has better longevity. The advantage of getting a Tesla is the optional e-girlfriend or e-other half. Its well worth getting this option as they are very handy. 3
proftournesol Posted May 22, 2017 Posted May 22, 2017 I showed that video to Mme T and asked 'why can't you do that?' Strangely she just walked out of the room without saying anything 3
Guest rmpfyf Posted May 23, 2017 Posted May 23, 2017 21 hours ago, proftournesol said: The Bolt will never be made in RHD GM will only produce limited numbers of them in the uS as they are a compliance car unfortunately. So wrong - very untrue. On 2017-5-22 at 8:03 PM, al said: but if anything it shows how pitiful the electric car market is right now. 219 cars in total...vs 1.14 million ! petrol electric and hybrid cars people bought instead. people arent stoopid ! and yes something has to be done if they want people to take up electric. we need better more suitable car options. and better infrastructure etc and something that makes more sense. which if clearly doesnt now. heck people bought 363,000 diesel vehicles instead ! and this even with diesel gate and all the bad press etc ! gives some perspective.... as far as big players being involved... they arent as long as they dont have a toe in the water. most if not all dont right now... so they need to get off their butts collectively as well. particularly the likes of renault and GM who actually have good electric options but arent bringing them in right now. Infrastructure we have - for many we can charge at home. The rest will grow in time. The cars are coming. They won't all come to market tomorrow, but they're coming. Fleet emissions credits would be a start in AU. Might get some traction after local production winds down, it's been on the table for a while.
proftournesol Posted May 23, 2017 Posted May 23, 2017 I'd love to be wrong on that, can the Bolt even be made as RHD? 1
betty boop Posted May 23, 2017 Author Posted May 23, 2017 14 minutes ago, proftournesol said: I'd love to be wrong on that, can the Bolt even be made as RHD? unless so narrow market minded. i cant imagine a car not being made for either side drive these days. most chasis are mirrored for it with global platforms and such. maybe there is another dash arrangement and some other bits and things. but yeah you'd hope the chasis is setup for it with some foresight 1
Guest rmpfyf Posted May 23, 2017 Posted May 23, 2017 8 hours ago, proftournesol said: I'd love to be wrong on that, can the Bolt even be made as RHD? It can, it probably won't, but you're very wrong on the compliance car bit.
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