Addicted to music Posted November 21, 2023 Posted November 21, 2023 https://www.facebook.com/groups/teslaownersaustralia/permalink/663063269149085/ Not sure how accurate this is but this is of FB Tesla page that someone posted. If you can’t reach this page, it’s a email that was sent to all staff at Monash Health to cease charging EV on site. The typical discussion is that the usual points of being overlooked that the statistics show that EV fires are non existence….what people don’t realised is the magnitude and violent intensity a lithium fire has and it’s nature to reignite. What is also not factored in is buildings sprinkler systems are not designed to efficiently put these out. Imagine knocking out one of these facilities, the impact it has on patients.
Addicted to music Posted November 21, 2023 Posted November 21, 2023 29 minutes ago, betty boop said: well the reality is still continuing ... if read the articles will find Tesla has been fined by south korean regulators for porkie pie range claims... Tesla was fined earlier this year by South Korean regulators who found the cars delivered as little as half their advertised range in cold weather. Another recent study found that three Tesla models averaged 26% below their advertised ranges. if read the articles will find the EPA in US has required Tesla to reduce its range estimates if read the articles will find independent testing found Teslas dashboard range meters ignore temperatures which impact range... Data collected in 2022 and 2023 from more than 8,000 Teslas by Recurrent, a Seattle-based EV analytics company, showed that the cars’ dashboard range meters didn’t change their estimates to reflect hot or cold outside temperatures, which can greatly reduce range. if read the articles will see the same organisation testing Chevys fords and Hyundais found them more accurate ... if read about article published in SAE its author Pannone told Reuters that three Tesla models posted the worst performance, falling short of their advertised ranges by an average of 26%. the situation in south korea is more dire for Tesla... South Korean regulators earlier this year fined Tesla about $2.1 million for falsely advertised driving ranges on its local website between August 2019 and December 2022. The Korea Fair Trade Commission (KFTC) found that Tesla failed to tell customers that cold weather can drastically reduce its cars’ range. It cited tests by the country’s environment ministry that showed Tesla cars lost up to 50.5% of the company’s claimed ranges in cold weather. leading even musk to apologise and admit the false and exaggerated claims... Korean regulators required Tesla to publicly admit it had misled consumers. Musk and two local executives did so in a June 19 statement, acknowledging “false/exaggerated advertising.” it’s not just Tesla. In this test the Tesla did better than the rest:
betty boop Posted November 21, 2023 Author Posted November 21, 2023 7 minutes ago, Addicted to music said: email that was sent to all staff at Monash Health to cease charging EV on site. silly knee jerk.. can someone send them the below ? https://www.evfiresafe.com/_files/ugd/8b9ad1_796ba918eb744910b6e68e9639f35393.pdf this is our own verified research from RMIT based evfiresafe funded by the department of defence of all things.. and they have concluded from tons of research across ev fires globally that the risk of a fire from a road registered EV is "Very low risk" category... to put into perspective .. LEVs light electric vehicles like e-bikes, scooters and skate boards fall in "high risk" and things like laptops and iPads in "low risk"
Addicted to music Posted November 21, 2023 Posted November 21, 2023 4 minutes ago, betty boop said: silly knee jerk.. can someone send them the below ? https://www.evfiresafe.com/_files/ugd/8b9ad1_796ba918eb744910b6e68e9639f35393.pdf this is our own verified research from RMIT based evfiresafe funded by the department of defence of all things.. and they have concluded from tons of research across ev fires globally that the risk of a fire from a road registered EV is "Very low risk" category... to put into perspective .. LEVs light electric vehicles like e-bikes, scooters and skate boards fall in "high risk" and things like laptops and iPads in "low risk" The research doesn’t count when you have this and it’s classed very low risk: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-28/fire-at-tesla-giant-battery-project-near-geelong-investigation/100496688
betty boop Posted November 21, 2023 Author Posted November 21, 2023 1 minute ago, Addicted to music said: The research doesn’t count when you have this and it’s classed very low risk: thats a giant battery and we are talking cars here. i dont think ev fire safe even pick up giant batteries instead they are talking your typical battery setup i think...regardles evfire safe is very well regarded and respected...they have literally researched and verified gazillions of fires and instead we get likes of months health doing knee jerk decisions now.. and so wide across the board ... "within monash health sites"... really ?
MattyW Posted November 21, 2023 Posted November 21, 2023 Somehow I don’t think this will impact Tesla the way Dieselgate did VW group. Tesla has too much of a loyal following. Reminds me somewhat of Apple. That said the algorithms can be updated to be accurate once Tesla is forced to provide accurate data so I dare say it is less of an issue than Dieselgate anyway. Much of Australia is perfect for EV’s being quite warm/hot all year around. I dare say those in Tassie will see reduced range. 1
betty boop Posted November 21, 2023 Author Posted November 21, 2023 5 minutes ago, MattyW said: That said the algorithms can be updated to be accurate once Tesla is forced to provide accurate data so I dare say it is less of an issue than Dieselgate anyway. Much of Australia is perfect for EV’s being quite warm/hot all year around. I dare say those in Tassie will see reduced range. This is what bjorn says and he has long history with Tesla, tested everything Tesla or otherwise in range of conditions and says easily fixed if they adopted a GOM as in guess o meter as other makes do. Even my little mini ev has a gom and takes into account weather conditions and state of charge and battery conditions etc. also been shown it can achieve its wltp even in city and highway conditions … it can work the other way though with its conservative take it can freak folks out as underestimates usually … rather than overstate … you are right though we are greatly benefitted here with our mostly “mild” weather that said Melbourne I have done some early morning winter runs in 0-4 degree and such and we do get in the 30+ but none of these are all that often … not too many stretches … 1
Addicted to music Posted November 21, 2023 Posted November 21, 2023 9 hours ago, betty boop said: thats a giant battery and we are talking cars here. i dont think ev fire safe even pick up giant batteries instead they are talking your typical battery setup i think...regardles evfire safe is very well regarded and respected... It really is irrelevant where it’s used, the chemicals are the same, so are the characteristics, it doesn’t change, flammable is always flammable. Basically size matters that requires the resource, what they are justifying here is that they don’t have the systems in place to deal with it: sprinkler system is inadequate. 9 hours ago, betty boop said: .they have literally researched and verified gazillions of fires and instead we get likes of months health doing knee jerk decisions now.. and so wide across the board ... "within monash health sites"... really ? when they make “knee Jerk decisions “. It’s usually someone stupidity spoiling it for everyone else. I can see where they are coming from, at Monash Medical they are doing surgery 24/7 none stop! You wouldn’t want any emergency event to occur on site that can knock out any critical utilities; hospitals like monash have there own generators that kick in during a blackout…. I would hate the thought of this going off line!
betty boop Posted November 22, 2023 Author Posted November 22, 2023 11 hours ago, Addicted to music said: when they make “knee Jerk decisions “. It’s usually someone stupidity spoiling it for everyone else. I can see where they are coming from, at Monash Medical they are doing surgery 24/7 none stop! You wouldn’t want any emergency event to occur on site that can knock out any critical utilities; hospitals like monash have there own generators that kick in during a blackout…. I would hate the thought of this going off line! you know when its bull dust with statements like.... cease charging personal Light Electric Vehicle (LEV) or Electric Vehicle (EV within the contines of Monash Health properties, including all car parking areas. Noting this excludes Monash Health leased EV's, which may be charged at designated Monash Health charging stations, at selected sites. all car parking areas ? ... sure and yet apparently fine for monash health leased ev vehicles ? why ? what makes them so special ? they are just wanting no one else to charge on their property... as folks in that page picked up... monash council themselves provide free charging... and there are shopping centres all around monash health facilities with charging .. dc fast and free.... no one else is making statements like this .. so yes it is a knee jerk and a silly one at that.. not that bothers.. there is charging galore in monash
betty boop Posted November 22, 2023 Author Posted November 22, 2023 on this topic ... evfiresafe who id trust have made comment, https://thedriven.io/2023/11/22/australian-hospital-group-and-golf-club-ban-ev-charging-because-of-fire-risks/ However, Emma Sutcliffe, from EV Fire Safe, says people are conflating road-registered passenger vehicles with personal mobility devices. There is confusion between the two, but they are worlds apart,” Sutcliffe told The Driven. She said there had been regular reports of battery fires with e-bikes, e-scooters and electric buggies, but this mostly was the result cheap equipment from China and other countries and bad supervision. EV batteries, Sutcliffe said, had stringent safety standards and there had been no reports of fires caused by charging in Australia, and of the six EV fires that had been reported in Australia, all had come from batteries that had been previously damaged. Sutcliffe says that if organisations want to stop employees and visitors using 10 amp power points for EV charging, they should encourage safe charging by providing 7kW charging stations that can be properly managed. “You have to give everyone an option,” she said. for some knee jerk organisations it might take a while for sense to sink in ...
proftournesol Posted November 22, 2023 Posted November 22, 2023 All batteries will store less power in cold weather, there will be small differences between chemistries, but it's just chemistry
Addicted to music Posted November 23, 2023 Posted November 23, 2023 $50k to replace a battery on a Hyundai…….until the media took on the story…..
Addicted to music Posted November 23, 2023 Posted November 23, 2023 23 hours ago, betty boop said: you know when its bull dust with statements like.... cease charging personal Light Electric Vehicle (LEV) or Electric Vehicle (EV within the contines of Monash Health properties, including all car parking areas. Noting this excludes Monash Health leased EV's, which may be charged at designated Monash Health charging stations, at selected sites. all car parking areas ? ... sure and yet apparently fine for monash health leased ev vehicles ? why ? what makes them so special ? they are just wanting no one else to charge on their property... as folks in that page picked up... monash council themselves provide free charging... and there are shopping centres all around monash health facilities with charging .. dc fast and free.... no one else is making statements like this .. so yes it is a knee jerk and a silly one at that.. not that bothers.. there is charging galore in monash I’m not the one that made the decision, just highlighting the fact what the memo directing to there staff, take it up with Monash Health . yes they have EV on site, possibly in dedicated EV charging stations that’s certified.. like I said someone did something that was either seen unauthorised….. Just like Electric scooters in CBD. Obviously using some outlet that’s unauthorised that could very well possibly take out the electrical in the hospital that could create grief….in the Tesla FB page, some idiot was telling people to file down the 15A earth plug so it fits in a 10A! THATS IS THE TESLA AUSTRALIA FB page! FFS, how F…king dumb can you be! When they get caught out this is the outcome! Pls don’t take this directing at you or anyone else, but that’s what was posted! 22 hours ago, betty boop said: on this topic ... evfiresafe who id trust have made comment, https://thedriven.io/2023/11/22/australian-hospital-group-and-golf-club-ban-ev-charging-because-of-fire-risks/ However, Emma Sutcliffe, from EV Fire Safe, says people are conflating road-registered passenger vehicles with personal mobility devices. There is confusion between the two, but they are worlds apart,” Sutcliffe told The Driven. She said there had been regular reports of battery fires with e-bikes, e-scooters and electric buggies, but this mostly was the result cheap equipment from China and other countries and bad supervision. EV batteries, Sutcliffe said, had stringent safety standards and there had been no reports of fires caused by charging in Australia, and of the six EV fires that had been reported in Australia, all had come from batteries that had been previously damaged. Sutcliffe says that if organisations want to stop employees and visitors using 10 amp power points for EV charging, they should encourage safe charging by providing 7kW charging stations that can be properly managed. “You have to give everyone an option,” she said. for some knee jerk organisations it might take a while for sense to sink in ... I really don’t care what research you quote, Lithium is flammable and has a low thermal runaway, something I discussed in great lengths to an ex SNA member here who claimed he worked for Tesla and numerous other places as a engineer, the chemistry doesn’t change , neither does the characteristics, that’s why you see insurance companies trying to increase premiums once a EV is owned…. The chemistry or implementation has to change and BYD has gone the write way with there Blade Battery, an implementation that’s safe when shorted, punctured or physically damaged, these Blade Batteries do not burst violently into flames. The manufacturing and purity is critical for lithium ion as Sony and Samsung, found out! I’d hate what it cost Samsung! What about Boeing 777 whe they 1st implement lithium ion where a fire occurred and the world wide fleet was grounded, did the research delve into any of these instances? Also the safety depends on not just purity and tolerances, it relies heavily on the BMS, if that fails, good luck to you!
betty boop Posted November 23, 2023 Author Posted November 23, 2023 1 minute ago, Addicted to music said: I’m not the one that made the decision, just highlighting the fact what the memo directing to there staff, take it up with Monash Health . well its clearly a bit silly ....especially when monash health vehicles are ok....and if they investigated some they would find so are any road registered evs as per evfiresafe. 7 minutes ago, Addicted to music said: like I said someone did something that was either seen unauthorised….. Just like Electric scooters in CBD. well stop them then... lock out anything you can publicly charge a scooter off.. ev firesafe says they are high risk... no need to throw out baby with bath water .. if wanting folks to not use the monashs health ev chargers thats really easy .. lock them out.. even my home charger can be locked out so no one else can use it... 1 minute ago, Addicted to music said: I really don’t care what research you quote, i respect thats your opinion, however be aware evfire safe are an authority on the matter. they have done a massive amount of research on the matter if have a look at it. in fact a well respected global authority investigating every single fire where possible and verifying. id suggest they know a little more about the matter than monash health in fact a lot more so not surprised to see them come out and publicly say monash health is wrong on this aspect...and confusing road registered vehicles that are low risk to charge vs high risk light ev like scooters and e-bikes and such ... theres a lot of cheap nasty rubbish out there ...
aussievintage Posted November 24, 2023 Posted November 24, 2023 16 hours ago, betty boop said: and confusing road registered vehicles that are low risk to charge vs high risk light ev like scooters and e-bikes and such ... theres a lot of cheap nasty rubbish out there ... The trouble is that the risk evaluation is only one part of the equation. When consequences are so high, even low-risk is not tolerated.
betty boop Posted November 24, 2023 Author Posted November 24, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, aussievintage said: The trouble is that the risk evaluation is only one part of the equation. When consequences are so high, even low-risk is not tolerated. world wide we aren't making stupid knee jerks like monash health are ... .. especially when they contradict themselves straight away by saying oh but monash health EVs are ok and no its not low risk ...road registered EVs are very low risk where we are is in the very early stages of change... its expected that the natural reaction is denial and fear of unknown... most other societies have moved way beyond this ... they have moved way beyond to stage 3 which is acceptance and integration... even across the pond NZ is way beyond where we are at.... fortunately many sections of our society has also moved along. eg around my neck of woods we are surrounded by public chargers... on council property. shopping centres, gym, library, businesses... heck even a market i visited had one this week. thankfully we have a lot more sensible folk than those who are still grappling with the denial and fear of unknown... Edited November 24, 2023 by betty boop 1
betty boop Posted November 24, 2023 Author Posted November 24, 2023 kia's EV5 has launched at a pretty affordable price point and could end up costing less than $50k for something sportage sized 2024 Kia EV5 SUV may become one of Australia’s cheapest electric cars Chinese pricing for the Kia EV5 electric SUV suggests it could become one of the least expensive battery-powered cars in Australia when it arrives in 2024. https://www.drive.com.au/news/kia-ev5-price-announced-china/ The Kia EV5 – an electric SUV with similar proportions to the Sportage – has gone on sale in China, priced from less than half as much as the best-selling Tesla Model Y. As first reported by Electrek, the EV5 will start from 149,800 yuan in China – equivalent to approximately $32,000 in Australian currency – thanks to cost advantages from being built in Kia’sChinese factory, rather than in South Korea. While it is unlikely to be this affordable in Australia – due to import costs, and a higher level of standard equipment which is expected of our market – it could still cost less than $50,000.
betty boop Posted November 24, 2023 Author Posted November 24, 2023 good news in that are press aren't so easily fooled and it seems its mostly social media and entrenched thinking that drives myths.. the guardian as has been widely reported in the press is running as a result a serious on EV myth busters ! good on them... the less myths we have the better ! in this the first they explore whether EV pose a greater fire risk than petrol or diesel vehicles .. this is on the back of a big beat up on social media about a fire that ripped through luton airport which was being blamed on social media on an electric car when all the time even the fire department was saying it was a diesel vehicle ! https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/nov/20/do-electric-cars-pose-a-greater-fire-risk-than-petrol-or-diesel-vehicles
Addicted to music Posted November 24, 2023 Posted November 24, 2023 (edited) 15 hours ago, betty boop said: good news in that are press aren't so easily fooled and it seems its mostly social media and entrenched thinking that drives myths.. the guardian as has been widely reported in the press is running as a result a serious on EV myth busters ! good on them... the less myths we have the better ! in this the first they explore whether EV pose a greater fire risk than petrol or diesel vehicles .. this is on the back of a big beat up on social media about a fire that ripped through luton airport which was being blamed on social media on an electric car when all the time even the fire department was saying it was a diesel vehicle ! https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/nov/20/do-electric-cars-pose-a-greater-fire-risk-than-petrol-or-diesel-vehicles It’s work Safe Victoria that brought it up. Charge EV should not be in a confined space that prompted the “knee Jerk reaction”. I agree with it, charge your EV that has lithium ion chemistry in the open. Very similar to declaring and having ALL lithium batteries with you as carry on when boarding a plane, if it goes into thermal runaway, you can put it out in the cabin, bit harder to get to when you’re 30k feet in the air and it’s in a check in luggage where no one can access. The fire that ripped though Luton Airport reported a IEC started the fire, if it did and it was pure ICE parking then the fire would have spread to the adjacent vehicles, it would not take long for fire dept to put that out! However this spread to the entire floor that was so intense, that I guarantee theee as a mixture of ICE and EV. https://www.drive.com.au/news/electric-cars-banned-from-charging-at-melbourne-hospitals/?utm_source=Nine-Front-Page&utm_medium=Referral Edited November 24, 2023 by Addicted to music
betty boop Posted November 24, 2023 Author Posted November 24, 2023 1 hour ago, Addicted to music said: It’s work Safe Victoria that brought it up. Charge EV should not be in a confined space that prompted the “knee Jerk reaction”. I agree with it, charge your EV that has lithium ion chemistry in the open. Very similar to declaring and having ALL lithium batteries with you as carry on when boarding a plane, if it goes into thermal runaway, you can put it out in the cabin, bit harder to get to when you’re 30k feet in the air and it’s in a check in luggage where no one can access Yeah that’s why Monash health say it’s totally ok to charge Monash health vehicles where they say no other vehicles can be. That makes total sense … no clearly not 1 hour ago, Addicted to music said: The fire that ripped though Luton Airport reported a IEC started the fire, if it did and it was pure ICE parking then the fire would have spread to the adjacent vehicles, it would not take long for fire dept to put that out! However this spread to the entire floor that was so intense, that I guarantee theee as a mixture of ICE and EV. This is exactly the reason guardian article is a ev myth debunking one “When a fire ripped through a car park at Luton airport last month it set off a round of speculation that an electric vehicle was to blame. The theory was quickly doused by the Bedfordshire fire service, which said the blaze appeared to have started in a diesel car. Yet the rumour refused to be quelled, spreading on social media like, well, wildfire. Even when these stories are patiently debunked, they come back as zombie myths that refuse to die.” because as it says no matter the facts, even if debunked, these zombie myths still keep coming back as is exactly what’s happening here ! 1 hour ago, Addicted to music said: https://www.drive.com.au/news/electric-cars-banned-from-charging-at-melbourne-hospitals/?utm_source=Nine-Front-Page&utm_medium=Referral If read the article it actually says “In October, a blaze which shut down a London airport was incorrectly attributed to an electric-car fire, having been started by a fault in a diesel-powered SUV.” I am not going to get drawn in to myths surrounding this as that’s exactly what we shouldn’t be doing It also highlights the idiocy of the Monash health knee jerk “Confusingly, electric cars which are leased by Monash Health do not have to comply with the ban and can be charged at designated charging stations across the group’s sites.“ I don’t think this irony has been missed by the press thankfully …
aussievintage Posted November 24, 2023 Posted November 24, 2023 47 minutes ago, betty boop said: “Confusingly, electric cars which are leased by Monash Health do not have to comply with the ban and can be charged at designated charging stations across the group’s sites.“ The actual release from Monash apparently says this... Note that it says "at selected sites", which I am thnking will be those in the open where they aren't as much of a danger. Since they have leased vehicles, it makes sense to reserve the remaining safe sites, for their own use. That and video of the Luton fire, which does look suspicious, and an admittedly biased discussion here...
betty boop Posted November 24, 2023 Author Posted November 24, 2023 (edited) 16 minutes ago, aussievintage said: The actual release from Monash apparently says this... so why does the release headline by saying Discontinue charging Electric Vehicles within Monash Health sites, including all car parks - November 2023 and then further clarify to say Communicate to all employees that they must immediately cease charging personal Light Electric Vehicle (LEV) or Electric Vehicle (EV within the contines of Monash Health properties, including all car parking areas. then go on to contradict itself by saying Noting this excludes Monash Health leased EV's, which may be charged at designated Monash Health charging stations, at selected sites. this is the idiocy that the media has picked up on, eg the age as they say .... pointing out the contradiction ... “Confusingly, electric cars which are leased by Monash Health do not have to comply with the ban and can be charged at designated charging stations across the group’s sites.“ 16 minutes ago, aussievintage said: That and video of the Luton fire that video is exactly what the guardian is talking about ... jumped up online YouTubers that keep zombie myths going.. we have facts... yep even the fire department locally there confirmed it it wasnt an ev..... yet click bate and jumped experts keep coming back with their 2c worth. i see this one is from au .. yep we are so far in the early part of EV journey here.. guys like this will continue to feed the fear of unknown that guys is even still living in denial when comes to EVs...he's making a click bate living on it clearly .... his entire channel seems to be living there and some folks will continue to stay there .. others like in rest of world and even here will move on to acceptance and integration Edited November 24, 2023 by betty boop
aussievintage Posted November 24, 2023 Posted November 24, 2023 (edited) 8 minutes ago, betty boop said: so why does the release headline by saying Discontinue charging Electric Vehicles within Monash Health sites, including all car parks - November 2023 That is consistent if the "selected" charging sites are outside the major carparks and nominated (as they were) in the original statement from Monash 8 minutes ago, betty boop said: Communicate to all employees that they must immediately cease charging personal Light Electric Vehicle (LEV) or Electric Vehicle (EV within the contines of Monash Health properties, including all car parking areas. then go on to contradict itself by saying Noting this excludes Monash Health leased EV's, which may be charged at designated Monash Health charging stations, at selected sites. That's not a contradiction, it is selectively allowing only the leased EV's, which as I said, makes sense. I'd bet they drop the leases as soon as it is financially viable, but until then, only charge at the selected few charging stations that they sensibly, have reserved for this purpose. 8 minutes ago, betty boop said: that video is exactly what the guardian is talking about ... jumped up online YouTubers that keep zombie myths going.. Maybe but that video, as you watch it, does look odd. 8 minutes ago, betty boop said: he's making a click bate living on it clearly .... his entire channel seems to be living there I said it was biased, but at least he quoted the Monash statement correctly, not just the newspaper headline. Edited November 24, 2023 by aussievintage
betty boop Posted November 24, 2023 Author Posted November 24, 2023 (edited) 12 minutes ago, aussievintage said: That's not a contradiction, it is selectively allowing only the leased EV's, which as I said, makes sense. I'd bet the drop the leases as soon as it is financially viable, but until then, only charge at the selected few charging stations that they sensibly, have reserved for this purpose. that is a contradiction.. it clearly says Discontinue charging Electric Vehicles within Monash Health sites, including all car parks - November 2023 I can't see how that can be read as saying hey yeah charge monash health leased ev and at monash health selected sites or this ... Communicate to all employees that they must immediately cease charging personal Light Electric Vehicle (LEV) or Electric Vehicle (EV within the confines of Monash Health properties, including all car parking areas. I can't see how that can be read as saying hey yeah charge monash health leased evs and at monash health selected sites and yeah every media outlet has picked up the contradiction when they say Noting this excludes Monash Health leased EV's, which may be charged at designated Monash Health charging stations, at selected sites. so yeah dont worry they said discontinue charging EVs ... within monash health sites and including all car parks ignore we repeated this by saying cease charging of EV within confines of monash health sites including "all car parks" hey they actually say all car parks ... are their designated charging stations not on monash health sites and not in car parks ? 12 minutes ago, aussievintage said: Maybe but that video, as you watch it, does look odd. can we raise the bar and not link to these click bate sites and continue zombie myths ? if want to do that be my guest wont have anything further from me to respond, will leave there on this topic. Edited November 24, 2023 by betty boop
aussievintage Posted November 24, 2023 Posted November 24, 2023 10 minutes ago, betty boop said: I can't see how that can be read as saying hey yeah charge monash health leased ev and at monash health selected sites You keep quoting the headline, but I found the Monash release to be clear on what was happening. 10 minutes ago, betty boop said: can we raise the bar and not link to these click bate sites and continue zombie myths ? if want to do that be my guest wont have anything further from me to respond, will leave there on this topic. I would rather we do not censor discussions. For example, I could ask that headlines not be quoted and that we go to the source of the info, not secondhand interpretations of Monash's statement. However I feel that would stifle debate. In the end it does not matter what you think, nor what I think. We are hearing that owners of carparks, and insurance companies are indeed reacting to these things, and NOT just in Australia.
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