Electric Cars Discussion

[betty boop]

most makers Id suggest regardless of tesla's offers want to maintain an independence i.e. determine their own destiny rather than be locked into something in someone elses hands. its why we end up with all these different systems and such. which will just become one big hotch potch.

 

hopefully wiht electric cars hopefully for most people it will mean batteries in the home that fill up during the day to charge their cars overnight.

 

a sprinkling of independant charging stations around the country that are universal and run by independents e.g. servos of today (that aren't owned and run by car companies). they might instead be run by the power companies e.g. ....AGL, energy australia and the likes  instead ! D:

 

the day will come ....but we are a long long way off from it. am not sure all the mentions of apple in the article. while been mentions in the press have seen didly from them re electric cars.  

[proftournesol]

From Bloomberg via The Age website

 

 

One thing Volkswagen can do to stop the bleeding: beat Tesla

Date November 7, 2015 - 10:19PM

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Tom Randall

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Tesla's autopilot function put to the test

We take the Model S autonomous driving tech to Australia's most famous stretch of tarmac.

First we learned Volkswagen sold 11 million diesel cars specifically designed to conceal deadly NOx emissions. Now we're told another 800,000 have been coughing up faulty readings of carbon dioxide-the very thing more than 80 world leaders are addressing at climate talks in Paris this month.

It's hard to imagine a more damaging scandal. This is a company that built its modern brand on efficiency, engineering and warm fuzzy feelings . Deception, pollution, and lung cancer: These do not inspire warm and fuzzy feelings.

Since the scandal erupted, Volkswagen has lost almost half its market value, and prices for its cars are dropping. To avoid losing a generation of enthusiasts, there are three things the company must do to tow itself from the muck:  

The groundbreaking Tesla Model S.

• Come clean. If there are more problems out there, Volkswagen needs to find and disclose them immediately. A long, slow trickle is worse than a big confession.
• Fix the problems. Customers bought Volkswagens thinking they were zippy, fuel-efficient, environmentally friendly vehicles. Fix the cars to be just that, or offer refunds.
• Beat Tesla.

While Volkswagen's engineers were writing software code to dupe the world into thinking diesel could be a clean-burning fuel, Tesla was building the battery-powered car of the future. Forget emissions cheating-electric cars don't even have tailpipes. Tesla has a multi-billion-dollar head start, but this is Volkswagen, the biggest automaker in the world. VW could crush it.

A few weeks ago, Volkswagen issued a press release pledging to make efficiency a higher priority in the wake of the scandal, with a focus on electric cars and hybrids. But it's mostly incremental stuff: a new modular platform to create electric drivetrain versions of popular cars, and a high-performance next-generation Phaeton aimed at the affluent Tesla crowd.

This is still playing catch-up, which nearly every other carmaker (plus Google and Apple) is doing as well. It's not enough.

So far, none of the biggest carmakers have gone all in on electric cars. BMW has received a lot of favourable comparisons to Tesla in the past year, but let's be real: The hybrid BMW i8 is a work of engineering art, but the plug is practically useless, offering an electric range of about 30km before the fossil fuels kick in. The i3, while more affordable than the current lineup of Teslas, has a range of about 130k miles per charge, less than a Nissan Leaf.

There is simply no electric car on the market today that is remotely close to the top-of-the-line Tesla.

• Range: around 470km 
• Punch: 0 to 100 km/h in 2.8 seconds
• Features: industry-leading "auto pilot" that's constantly improving
• Release date for the more affordable, Model 3: 2017

VW could be a Tesla killer (or at least a respected rival) if it really put its mind to it. It has two big advantages: money and scale. Tesla is spending about $US1.7 billion this year to build its business, and Wall Street hates it. Not an earnings call goes by that analysts don't fume over how much cash the company is burning. But by VW standards, that's a small price to pay. Volkswagen spent almost 8 times that much on research and development alone last year and has about $US30 billion in cash.

Tesla's biggest problem is scaling up its operations. The company's new Model X has a waiting list that stretches into the second half of next year, and its emerging battery business is booked until 2017. With the more affordable Model 3, to be unveiled in March and go on sale in 2017, CEO Elon Musk hopes to go from 50,000 sales in 2015 to 500,000 in 2020. Many analysts don't think that's possible. Volkswagen, by comparison, already sells 10 million cars a year. Scale is not a problem.

Volkswagen has been humbled to a stock valuation of about $US58 billion, or 7.5 times its estimated 2015 earnings. Upstart Tesla has a market cap of $US30 billion without turning a profit. Tesla gets a lot of good will from customers and investors, because it's putting it all on the line to make the future of cars arrive sooner.

No major carmaker has done the same, though a smattering of more-competitive electric cars is slated for the next three years. If Volkswagen really wanted to, it could still be first to sell a 450km-range all-electric car for under $US30,000. The only way to make up for the past is to commit to the future.

Bloomberg

 

 

[betty boop]

with regards VW, actually via the age I only just read the VW sales were infact strong and as per the R32 replacement thread quite clear they aren't dropping prices or anything. the resilience of companies particularly giants like VW is not to be underestimated. they are truly a worldwide giant. I totally agree any of these "hybrids" or supposed electric cars from any of these other makers e.g. VW, audi, BMW nissan with the leaf or the GM volt etc are all a bit of a joke. they'll get a few people buying into it. but they aren't the real deal and not a reality for most people as yet. 

 

one thing is for sure. when a maker e.g. VW take something like this seriously its going be something quite to behold. the time will come....and it is just a matter of time I think. theres just still too much money in petrol cars for them to think otherwise.

[Briz Vegas]

Too big to fail. Thats not a good thing.

Looking forward to the day when petrol or electric would be like ticking manual or auto on the order form today. Of course these days its harder to find a manual option anyway and driving in Brisbane is just a chore these days anyway so the gear knob is no where near as relevant as it once was.

[proftournesol]

First a trickle, now a flood sensing the opportunity created by the 'business as usual' manufacturers

 

 

Mysterious electric car start-up founded by former Tesla employees plans $1.4 billion factory

A rendering of Faraday Future's manufacturing plant.

In an industrial corner of this city outside Los Angeles, near a credit union and pet cemetery, a small white sign in front of a metal building reads "Faraday Future", with a number to call for deliveries.

It's the only indication of the high-tech hive of activity inside, where a mysterious electric car start-up is taking shape. In sleek offices with white furniture, a cast of highly pedigreed executives and engineers - including former senior employees of Tesla Motors - is planning a $US1 billion ($1.4b) factory that will churn out the next luxury electric car.

"You have to be a little bit brave to do something like this," said Richard Kim, head of design, who previously worked at BMW, Porsche and Audi. "We are going to make intelligent vehicles. We're building a brand."

Another rendering of Faraday Future's manufacturing plant.

The Faraday brand is tied to a Chinese multibillionaire with towering ambitions and an equally tall pile of cash.

The company declined to identify its ownership and investors, but a review of incorporation papers filed with the California secretary of state's office links Faraday to a Chinese media company operated by Jia Yueting, an entrepreneur who founded Leshi Internet Information & Technology.

Jia is worth $US7 billion, according to Forbes, which ranked him as China's 17th richest person. He recently launched a line of smartphones and acquired a 70 per cent stake in Yidao Yongche, an Uber-like car service in China.

Faraday Future plans to have a car ready by 2017.

The papers list Chaoying Deng, the woman who runs a Leshi affiliate in the US, as Faraday's chief executive. Earlier this year, Jia told The Wall Street Journal that he wanted to develop a car that would rival Tesla.

A vendor working with the company in Gardena told the Los Angeles Times that Faraday hasn't made any secret of its origin or its plans.

"They told us right off that this is China's response to Tesla," said the vendor, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorised to speak for Faraday.

Faraday spokeswoman Stacy Morris confirmed that Chaoying Deng is the chief executive but said that she wasn't involved in the day-to-day operations of the auto company.

"That's just on paper," Morris said.

What's clear is that the company and its 400 workers, housed in Nissan's former US sales office, see themselves as a rival to Tesla, the Palo Alto maker of high-end electric cars.

It also plans a similar game plan - offering a single high-end model first, followed by a wider array of hopefully more affordable electric cars.

"It will be a halo vehicle that will establish our brand and identity as we move forward into a larger range of vehicles that fill the need of a larger population," said Nick Sampson, a senior vice president at Faraday.

Sampson headed vehicle and chassis engineering for the Tesla Model S sport sedan, the only vehicle that that company has yet sold in large numbers. Other members of Faraday's leadership team include Dag Reckhorn, a former Tesla senior manufacturing executive, and several engineers and designers who worked on BMW and General Motors electric cars.

Faraday poached a manager from another company owned by Tesla chief executive Elon Musk - Porter Harris, a battery engineer from Musk's SpaceX rocket company, also based outside Los Angeles, in Hawthorne.

Tesla declined to comment on Thursday on how a rival maker of high-end electric cars might affect its business.

Faraday said it plans to sell its first vehicle in 2017 and is eyeing factory locations including California, Georgia, Louisiana and Nevada.

The pedigree of Faraday's leadership has helped lure investors, said Alan Baum, a West Bloomfield, Michigan, automotive analyst.

"It's a lot of people who are notable for their prior experiences," he said.

Sampson revealed almost no details about plans for the company's first car, except that it will include some self-driving functions.

"We are starting from a clean sheet of paper and, being 100 per cent electric, we won't fit into any of the current categories of vehicles," Sampson said.

Like Tesla and other manufacturers, Faraday is talking to various states about economic incentives for opening a car factory, Sampson said. A contest for Tesla's battery factory yielded a $US1.3 billion economic development package from Nevada.

A $US1 billion investment would be adequate to build a sizable auto factory, said James Rubenstein, an automotive industry analyst and geography professor at Miami University in Oxford, Ohio. This year Volvo said it would spend about half that much on a plant in South Carolina that will open in 2018 and produce up to 100,000 cars annually.

The time is ripe for new entrants to get into the auto business, said Thilo Koslowski, who heads the automotive practice at Gartner.

"Technologies are coming together at the right price points for all kinds of companies to get into the industry," he said.

Electric vehicle designers don't have to deal with all the moving parts of a gasoline engine and transmission or engineer an exhaust system, he said.

"You can almost use off-the-shelf stuff. You buy battery technology from suppliers like LG. Electric motors are easy to source," Koslowski said.

Nonetheless, it's still daunting to break into the automotive market against mature companies with massive dealership networks and existing customers.

"You have to convince consumers that the product is safe, exciting and that the company will be around to support the car," he said.

In addition to selling cars, Faraday is looking at other business models, such as subscription or shared ownership services.

"People could buy into a subscription model where you order a car to come pick you up," Morris said.

Sampson said driving is about to experience a period of "revolutionary change" as cars become more autonomous and traffic in big cities builds.

"With energy constraints, urban crowding and the increasingly intrinsic relationship we have with technology, today's cars simply do not meet today's needs," Sampson said.

Tesla may be looking at this same market. In a conference call with analysts this week, Musk was asked whether he saw a business case for offering on-demand transit using Tesla-built vehicles.

"I think it's quite a smart question, actually," Musk said, but declined to answer directly, saying the strategy was not yet "fully baked".

When it comes to building electric cars, Faraday will face stiff competition both from other start-ups and mature automakers. Tesla is expanding its product line and has just started manufacturing a second vehicle, the Model X crossover.

Meanwhile, Audi said it will enter the luxury electric vehicle market when it launches the Audi e-tron quattro sport utility in 2018.

And Karma Automotive, the new name of the company that built Fisker vehicles, has leased a large factory outside Los Angeles where it will build plug-in electric hybrid vehicles that could be for sale as early as the middle of next year.

The car company, which filed for bankruptcy protection in 2013 and was bought by Chinese auto parts giant Wanxiang Group a year later, has signed an 11-year lease worth an estimated $US30 million, signaling a long-term commitment by the firm.

Los Angeles Times

[proftournesol]

An interesting comparison of cradle to grave energy use for ICE and EVs prepared by the Union of Concerned Scientists. It examines various electricity generation options for the EVs in its calculations.

[proftournesol]

News on the new Tesla Model 3. Start saving  

[betty boop]

shrunken model S sounds good....so does that make it mazda 3 sized or still mazda 6 ??? since mazda 6 is still getting in the granpa boat sized cars

 

the renders look good...look forward to seeing what the real article is like.

 

I am still not sure  re electric cars ! today I drove to the power stations and back on a quarter tank of fuel and still had another 50km left in range ! with petrol as cheap as it is...and honestly it is a pittance when think about it.... a full tank full for me is under $40 and giving 650-700km range. or about 6c a km ! 

[eman]

News on the new Tesla Model 3. Start saving  

Can't save that much on the pension.  Have to win the lottery then I'm in.

 

Were they going to do a 4wd version of the Model 3 ?

Does your S have 2wd with some sort of clever 'traction control' ?

 

Since changing from old 4wd Subie the 'Traction Control' on my '02 Commodore has proven good enough for what I need.  (Slippy wet clay road and wet grass now and then).

[proftournesol]

Tesla are touting the Model 3 as a BMW 3 series competitor in the US so I imagine that this will be the approximate size. It will apparently be available as RWD and AWD just like the Model S and there a hint of a wagon or SUV option. 

There are youtube videos of a RWD Model S driving up a snowed in road somewhere in the US that AWD SUVs couldn't get up. The traction is supposed to be very good, much better than an equivalent ICE car although I haven't driven mine in the snow yet so can't give you personal experience.

Al I think that we need to compare cars within size classes, perhaps a Fiat 500 to a 500e rather than to a large car. It'll be a while until 500 sized EVs have an equivalent range to a ICE version as energy density in the proportionally smaller battery becomes the limiting factor. You probably need an ICE powered car but I'd imagine that most Fiat 500 owners would find the range of a 500e to be sufficient given that they can recharge them each night or at work.

[betty boop]

true true...its just petrol is so cheap ! 

 

unfortunately fiat 500e just not an option for us. in the us fiat loose more than the rrp of the petrol car here every time someone there buys the electric. good for city car the electric just not an option further out I dont think. will get there...but would need to be a ground up electric affair I think like the tesla for it to be viable.

 

good to know bmws 3 series sized. thats a good size...will be very popular

 

...not sure I will be able to afford one though and in anycase....our mazda 3 we'll have for quite a few years I think. with 5 years of warranty be another 4 years of ownership in the least I think.

[agelessgoodguy]

 Haven't searched if this link of Tesla Robot assembly has been on here yet but, its a feat of computer engineering by any measure, another feature of the future?

Edited November 19, 2015 by agelessgoodguy

[proftournesol]

Why car dealers don't like EVs (why the Nissan Leaf has sold so poorly here)

 

 

A Car Dealers Won’t Sell: It’s Electric

A Honda salesman gave a test drive to a customer in an electric car in San Rafael, Calif. Many dealers are unenthusiastic about selling electric cars. Jason Henry for The New York Times 

More than seven years ago, President Obama called for one million electric cars to be on the road by this year, and the vehicles have gained a large fan club. Environmentalists promote them as a smart way to cut dangerous emissions. Owners love their pep and the gas money they save. Apple and Google have jumped into the race to build next-generation battery-powered cars.

So why are only about 330,000 electric vehicles on the road? One answer lies in an unexpected and powerful camp of skeptics: car dealers. They are showing little enthusiasm for putting consumers into electric cars.

Some buyers even tell stories of dealers talking them into gas cars and of ill-informed salespeople uncertain how far the cars can go on a charge or pushing oil changes that the cars don’t need. And industry officials themselves acknowledge a hesitancy to sell cars that may not suit drivers’ needs.

In a speech this year, the former chairman of the National Automobile Dealers Association, a trade group, said that tougher fuel-economy regulations can mean pushing cars on consumers that are about as enticing as broccoli, when they really want “low-calorie doughnuts” like fuel-efficient gas cars. The former chairman, Forrest McConnell, cited a survey finding that 14 percent of buyers cited fuel efficiency as the most important factor in buying a car.

 

Robert Kast with his 2015 Volkswagen e-Golf SEL in Maplewood, N.J. He says he knew more about the car than the dealers who sold it to him. Bryan Anselm for The New York Times 

“That was a nice way of saying 86 percent of them didn’t think so,” he said.

Others disagree that consumers think of zero emissions cars as broccoli. “That would be interesting if it was true,” said Mary Nichols, chairwoman of the Air Resources Board, a California agency that Gov. Jerry Brown has charged with developing policies to spur electric car sales. Ms. Nichols said she believes that consumers want these cars and that they have been dissuaded in part by unenthusiastic dealers and “horror story” sales experiences.

California has 150,000 electric cars, but that figure needs to grow tenfold in the next decade, she said, or the state will not be able to meet its environmental goals. Without the cars, “simply put, we can’t make it,” she added.

Industry insiders and those who follow the business closely say that dealers may also be worrying about their bottom lines. They assert that electric vehicles do not offer dealers the same profits as gas-powered cars. They take more time to sell because of the explaining required, which hurts overall sales and commissions. Electric vehicles also may require less maintenance, undermining the biggest source of dealer profits — their service departments.

Dealers’ caution, whatever their reasons, has created a “reality check to the idealism,” said Eric Cahill, who recently completed a dissertation on electric car sales for the Institute of Transportation Studies at the University of California, Davis. Retailers are a “bottleneck,” his research shows. They may hold the key to growing the niche, but dealers “may have very good reasons for steering a potential buyer away from an E.V.”

The vehicles are not for everyone. They typically go only 80 miles or so before they need to be recharged. While many people charge them at home, public charging stations remain limited, particularly outside California. Air conditioning and heat drain the battery quickly, so weather can affect performance.

But the cars have big selling points. Owners can ignore fluctuating gas prices. Government subsidies can lead to price breaks of $10,000 or more. The cars accelerate quickly, too.

The dealers play an obviously crucial role in the popularity of electric vehicles. Almost all new cars are sold through dealerships. To a large extent, dealers decide which cars they want to stock, and a salesperson can have a big impact on how someone feels about a prospective purchase.

Some electric car buyers have said they felt as if they were the ones doing the selling. For example, Chelsea Dell was in the market for an electric car in Salt Lake City last year, and discovered online that a local Chevrolet dealer had a used Volt.

She made an appointment to test-drive the car. But when she arrived, she said, a salesman told her that the car hadn’t been washed, and that he had instead readied a less expensive, gas-powered car.

“I was ready to pull the trigger, and they were trying to muscle me into a Chevy Sonic,” said Ms. Dell, an account administrator for U.P.S. “The thing I was baffled at was that the Volt was a lot more expensive.”

She asked to see the manager, prevailed, and paid the higher price for the car she wanted. “It was crazy,” she added.

 

A car dealer's clipboard explains electric vehicle mileage information. Some customers say they felt they had to convince dealers to sell them electric cars. Jason Henry for The New York Times 

According to Dr. Cahill, a 2013 J.D. Power survey found that electric-car buyers were significantly less satisfied with their car dealer than were buyers of traditional cars. Consumer Reports last year published results from a secret shopper survey in which its representatives visited dealers around the country and found, for example, a Toyota salesperson in Bayside, Queens, who would not even show a Prius plug-in that the dealer had in stock, and a Ford dealer in Manhattan who denied that Ford offered an electric Focus model (not true).

Charge Across Town, a California-funded nonprofit that advocates electric vehicles, organizes events to introduce consumers to dealers, but has had to work hard at times just to get dealers to show up. In August in San Diego, at the first such event, a few dealers showed up, but to the astonishment of the organizers wouldn’t let anyone test-drive or even sit in the cars, said Maureen Blanc, who heads Charge Across Town.

The group saw better dealer turnout at a recent event in San Rafael, with representatives from BMW, Mitsubishi, Mercedes, Ford, Honda and Tesla there. (Tesla stands apart in the conversation about dealers because it doesn’t use them, selling directly to consumers.)

At the event, Kyle Gray, a BMW salesman, said he was personally enthusiastic about the technology, but listed several reasons that dealers may not do more to push the cars: Salespeople who have spent years understanding combustion cars don’t have time to learn about a technology that represents a fraction of overall sales, and the sales process takes more time because the technology is new, cutting into commissions.

Mr. Gray told the story of a couple who came into the dealership to try an electric BMW and, during a test drive, discovered that the braking system felt so different that “the wife was in the front getting sick.”

In the end, though, he said the couple got used to the car and loved it. That’s why, he said, the dealership where he works allows three-day test drives, so that potential customers can get used to the different driving experience.

BMW and Nissan are among the companies whose dealers tend to be more enthusiastic and informed, said Dr. Cahill, the scholar. He estimated that, over all, 10 percent of dealers are “really sharp” on the technology.

Marc Deutsch, Nissan’s business development manager for electric vehicles said some salespeople just can’t rationalize the time it takes to sell the cars. A salesperson “can sell two gas burners in less than it takes to sell a Leaf,” he said. “It’s a lot of work for a little pay.”

He also pointed to the potential loss of service revenue. “There’s nothing much to go wrong,” Mr. Deutsch said of electric cars. “There’s no transmission to go bad.” (As the Nissan website states: “Say goodbye to pricey oil changes and tune-ups. With fewer moving parts than any car you’ve ever owned, the Nissan LEAF is ultra low maintenance.”)

Jared Allen, a spokesman for the National Automobile Dealers Association, said there wasn’t sufficient data to prove that electric cars would require less maintenance. But he acknowledged that service was crucial to dealer profits.

According to the organization, dealers on average make three times as much profit from service as they do from new-car sales. A 2013 J.D. Power survey of car buyers found that about 48 percent of electric car buyers plan to take their car back to the dealer for service, compared with 57 percent for traditional cars, noted Dr. Cahill, from U.C. Davis.

Maybe that helps explains the experience of Robert Kast, who last year leased a Volkswagen e-Golf from a local dealer. He said the salesman offered him a $15-per-month maintenance package that included service for oil changes, belt repair and water pumps.

“I said: ‘You know it doesn’t have any of those things,’” Mr. Kast recalled. He said the salesman excused himself to go confirm this with his manager. Of the whole experience, Mr. Kast, 61, said: “I knew a whole lot more about the car than anyone in the building.”

[betty boop]

do you blame dealers for being un enthusiastic ?

[proftournesol]

No I don't, given how much money they make from parts and servicing. The dealer system is inextricably linked to ICE cars it seems. I imagine that if dealers had got their way and had controlled Tesla sales then Tesla would have sunk without a trace with dealers claiming that they were 'unsellable' and that customers 'just weren't interested'. I wonder how many Leafs would be sold of Nissan sold them directly or GM sold Volts directly?

[betty boop]

No I don't, given how much money they make from parts and servicing. The dealer system is inextricably linked to ICE cars it seems. I imagine that if dealers had got their way and had controlled Tesla sales then Tesla would have sunk without a trace with dealers claiming that they were 'unsellable' and that customers 'just weren't interested'. I wonder how many Leafs would be sold of Nissan sold them directly or GM sold Volts directly?

 

well I dont know. the volt couldnt be given away the dealer I remember it at. had a huge sign...open to offers...any ...really  

 

theyre bad value and poor cars. any genuine dealer is not going to be that enthusiastic to get bums into driver seats of these things. they aren't teslas.

 

the new leaf maybe a different thing. time will tell.

[proftournesol]

I've never driven a Volt or a Leaf so I can't personally comment on them but I've only seen positive comments from owners who seem to love them. I've never ever seen any marketing for either of them and I believe that Volts in particular are always left in the far corner of the lot with no promotion. No wonder Musk wanted to steer clear of dealers who would have no enthusiasm at all to sell his cars.

The new Volt is supposedly quite good and a big leap in quality and range over the previous model as is the Leaf. We are unlikely to see the new Volt here but the Leaf is likely

[norpus]

http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/2019-mercedes-benz-elc-news-rumors-specs/?&utm_term=DT%20Newsletter%20-%20Daily%20Subscribers

Mercedes sold its 10% share in Tesla for some reason. Maybe this is one

[norpus]

http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/the-tesla-light-show-wishes-you-a-merry-christmas/?&utm_term=DT%20Newsletter%20-%20Daily%20Subscribers

[betty boop]

having visited the local nissan facility actually making parts for the nissan leaf....seeing a tiny little kangaroo on each part produced and hearing their commitment behind it I went away wiht some faith in their approach. I dont think elon musk is on this path he is very much the philanthropist that wants to sign on the top end of town with the luxe limo approach. theres nothing now or coming in the peoples car category. I'm surprised ford isn't in there. especially given henry fords almost socialist approach to make cars affordable and so every employee of his could afford one. it certainly changed the face of america. but then ford and GM were not that long ago on their knees to the us government and living on handouts that has kept them afloat. you'd think toyota with years of hybrid experience would be right in there ...but now their effort with their plug in hybrid as per the drive it analysis quoted above will take anyone 350,000 kms of driving to even break even. i suspect they are not sitting still.

 

but its renault nissan I think has probably the hope for the peoples electric car. something everyone can afford. after all if want something like a electric car to make a difference you want the mass populace to be driving it. not something only those that can afford a high priced machine.

 

times will change ...though having seen a full model change taking close to ten years in the auto industry a whole sale change to electric is probably still suspect decades in the making.

[TomAus]

having visited the local nissan facility actually making parts for the nissan leaf....seeing a tiny little kangaroo on each part produced and hearing their commitment behind it I went away wiht some faith in their approach. I dont think elon musk is on this path he is very much the philanthropist that wants to sign on the top end of town with the luxe limo approach. theres nothing now or coming in the peoples car category. I'm surprised ford isn't in there. especially given henry fords almost socialist approach to make cars affordable and so every employee of his could afford one. it certainly changed the face of america. but then ford and GM were not that long ago on their knees to the us government and living on handouts that has kept them afloat. you'd think toyota with years of hybrid experience would be right in there ...but now their effort with their plug in hybrid as per the drive it analysis quoted above will take anyone 350,000 kms of driving to even break even. i suspect they are not sitting still.

 

but its renault nissan I think has probably the hope for the peoples electric car. something everyone can afford. after all if want something like a electric car to make a difference you want the mass populace to be driving it. not something only those that can afford a high priced machine.

 

times will change ...though having seen a full model change taking close to ten years in the auto industry a whole sale change to electric is probably still suspect decades in the making.

I am not sure I agree that there is not much available in the peoples car category, Al. In my view there are quite a few options available globally. Unfortunately very few of these are available locally so my hope is that this will change. I believe there is a growing interest in electronic vehicles but with few to choose from sales in Australia will continue to be low. Interestingly, a survey in the UK found that the majority of Britons would consider an EV. Link.

[betty boop]

I am not sure I agree that there is not much available in the peoples car category, Al. In my view there are quite a few options available globally. Unfortunately very few of these are available locally so my hope is that this will change. I believe there is a growing interest in electronic vehicles but with few to choose from sales in Australia will continue to be low. Interestingly, a survey in the UK found that the majority of Britons would consider an EV. Link.

 

 

not much tom here at all in real term..can see the racv running cost sheets when come to Ev...its pretty devoid of choices !

 

I read in the tesla thread it needs to haul 600kg of batteries to get its 450km range.

 

the thing of note with that is my budget car with a full tank of 25kg of fuel still has nearly 1.5x the range of a tesla with its 600kg of batteries as source..

 

it is a real shame an electric car has to cart around 600kg of batteries. with cars weight is everything. yeah sure whack a large motor on it ...but adding 600kg in a car add countless times more weight to the car with the stiffening of chasis, drive train, motor, suspension, steering wheels, alloys etc that needs to be done to haul the load.

 

electric cars obviously have to have the range for them to be viable alternative to fuel cars. am waiting to see batteries weighing 25kg and still a range of 600km + 

 

the day will come ... that is probably the real race happening here... battery tech ...its actually not electric cars I dont think. car makers been making cars for 100+ years now that is not the challenge. more efficient electric motors and batteries I suspect are the key to the successful future of the electric car.

[TomAus]

It comes back to each individuals requirements. If one needs a car which a daily range of 450 km or more then an electric vehicle is not the best option. On the other hand, how many actually drive these distances on a daily basis? The average annual driving distance in Australia is 14,000 km which equals 40 km per day. If you travel 40 km a day or twice/three times this distance then there are plenty of options available (globally). 

 

There are different ways to skin a cat and whilst Tesla has chosen to use 600 kg of batteries to achieve their impressive goals they are the exception rather than the rule. There are electrical vehicles which have batteries weighing considerable less but again they are not designed for long distance driving. 

 

There are some interesting developments in China where one bus company claims a 10 second charge will provide enough power to drive 5 km. Another bus company claims that a full charge can be completed within 10-15 minutes so it will be interesting to see how this and other technology continue to advance. EV's have been around for 150+ years so it is perhaps time that we see some real advancement.

[betty boop]

easy in australia to do those km in a day...just a trip to state border will get you there. only 4 hours driving. australians love driving and driving holidays. plenty of my work day trips whether here in victoria or tassie can do those distances. we have zippo zero nada electric option in australia for short distances...unless want to spend $40-$60k on a leaf or if can find a volt....kinda ridiculous for a city run about. mitsubishi had the mirage in our local shopping centre for $12 something drive away.....

 

I'd like to see some electric city runabouts that would do 40km a day and reckon it would suit a lot of people ...even if its say 50km to leave some margin...ideal I would say as 2nd car to pick up the kids, grab some shopping doing and erand. love to see it

[proftournesol]

not much tom here at all in real term..can see the racv running cost sheets when come to Ev...its pretty devoid of choices !

 

I read in the tesla thread it needs to haul 600kg of batteries to get its 450km range.

 

the thing of note with that is my budget car with a full tank of 25kg of fuel still has nearly 1.5x the range of a tesla with its 600kg of batteries as source..

 

it is a real shame an electric car has to cart around 600kg of batteries. with cars weight is everything. yeah sure whack a large motor on it ...but adding 600kg in a car add countless times more weight to the car with the stiffening of chasis, drive train, motor, suspension, steering wheels, alloys etc that needs to be done to haul the load.

 

electric cars obviously have to have the range for them to be viable alternative to fuel cars. am waiting to see batteries weighing 25kg and still a range of 600km + 

 

the day will come ... that is probably the real race happening here... battery tech ...its actually not electric cars I dont think. car makers been making cars for 100+ years now that is not the challenge. more efficient electric motors and batteries I suspect are the key to the successful future of the electric car.

With ICE powered cars weight is everything, the situation applies in a different way to EVs. If an EV battery had the energy density of petrol then an EV would weigh the same as an Ice vehicle but as electric motors are at least 3 times as efficient then it would come with incredible range and stupendous performance. As it is EVs still meet or exceed ICE performance and exceed Ice vehicle in MPGe equivalent economy. Of course they still obey the laws of physics and a Tesla can't change direction nor stop with the agility of a Fiat 500 but far exceeds it in performance and energy consumption. 

Remember that this is an initial effort from Tesla, competition in the EV market will increase battery energy density rapidly. The good thing is that in a few years I'll be able to exchange my 85kWhr battery for a 150kWhr battery at a fraction of the cost and no extra weight.