betty boop Posted January 3, 2016 Author Posted January 3, 2016 With ICE powered cars weight is everything, the situation applies in a different way to EVs. If an EV battery had the energy density of petrol then an EV would weigh the same as an Ice vehicle but as electric motors are at least 3 times as efficient then it would come with incredible range and stupendous performance. As it is EVs still meet or exceed ICE performance and exceed Ice vehicle in MPGe equivalent economy. Of course they still obey the laws of physics and a Tesla can't change direction nor stop with the agility of a Fiat 500 but far exceeds it in performance and energy consumption. Remember that this is an initial effort from Tesla, competition in the EV market will increase battery energy density rapidly. The good thing is that in a few years I'll be able to exchange my 85kWhr battery for a 150kWhr battery at a fraction of the cost and no extra weight. that is what we need is competition in the battery space ...just panasonic and LG is a two horse race... am sure will get there though....in the mean time we will have 600kg batteries needed in cars or the other approach as tom suggests above of range limited city cars. both are good 1
proftournesol Posted January 3, 2016 Posted January 3, 2016 Cheaper EVs with longer range are coming, and coming soon. Tesla S is the start of the change not the extent of the change. Hopefully my car seems old fashioned in a few years 1
betty boop Posted January 4, 2016 Author Posted January 4, 2016 a good article here from Tim Watts co founder of flexicar (car share) and director of cloud nine plug in cars. http://www.fapm.com.au/Portals/0/eNewsletter/Do%20electric%20cars%20have%20a%20future%20in%20Australia.pdf "In Australia, the EV market has barely got started. Only three models have been launched: the Mitsubishi iMiEV, the Nissan Leaf and the Holden Volt. No government consumer subsidies are on offer and carmakers have elected to set the price of the cars at an extremely high level, basically eliminating demand from all but the most passionate early adopters. Total sales have been around 500 units over the past 2 years. " he also provides a great analysis of the market segments and their relevance to australia, and sums up well in conclusion. "Analysis of the demographics of electric car buyers in North America and Europe suggests the following segments will be strongest contributors to EV sales in Australia: Older buyers sensitive to running costs – Many retirees on fixed incomes find the volatility of petrol prices very stressful and dislike the petrol refill experience. For this buyer segment, electric cars’ strong advantage is as ultra-cheap-to-run suburban transportation. Forecasts suggest Australian motorists will be paying $1.70 per litre for petrol by the end of 2013 due to the weakening dollar and rises in global oil prices. At $1.70 per litre for petrol, a driver travelling 15,000km per year can save over $2,000 per year on fuel by switching to an electric car. 2 car families choosing a greener ‘hybrid garage’ – For the 1 million Australian families with solar panels installed, replacing one of their household cars with a battery-powered vehicle powered by the sun on their rooftop can make a lot of sense. In the ‘hybrid garage’ the fossil-fuel driven vehicle with its 400km plus of driving range is the car of choice for any longer trips. The second pure-electric car with its range of around 150km is ideal for city- and-suburban trips, providing whisper-quiet driving at very low running costs. Technology enthusiasts – Carmakers are loading up their electric and plug-in hybrid models with the very latest in-car technology. Many features in the Leaf, Volt and Model S are controllable remotely via mobile phone apps. For this segment, the electric car is a natural extension of their battery powered collection of phones, tablets and netbooks. Hype about electric cars over the past five years has often far outpaced the long manufacturing lead- times and marketing challenges which are ever-present in the highly-competitive global car industry. But as sales of plug-in cars steadily grow and new brands and models are launched, the industry is slowly learning about the types of driver who will embrace these cars. It is almost certain that cars powered by fossil fuels will continue to dominate the industry for at least another decade. The cost advantages and energy-density of the fuel are still powerful advantages. But expect the battery-powered alternative with its quieter, greener, and cheaper-to run attributes to persist and in time grow into a very sizable niche in the market. " I could easily fall lin either of his latter two categories...if they had a relatively affordable runabout as electric car would make for a great second car for many I would think. both nissan and renault in their partnership realistically seem to be the only company working on this though. he is right on the money I feel, he probably wants to have finger right on the pulse wiht this too...given the flexicar business he runs. you will see these in most cities ... where if come across one in a flexicar bay can make a phone call with credit card details and it opens the car doors so you use and then return into a flexi car bay anywhere .... I can imagine electric cars being very suitable for this kind of business. showing apart form ownership there are other other uses and applications of electric cars... 1
betty boop Posted January 4, 2016 Author Posted January 4, 2016 a great comparison here of the tow most affordable EVs around...in the renault zoe and the nissan leaf... http://www.alphr.com/cars/1001808/nissan-leaf-vs-renault-zoe-which-electric-vehicle-is-best we unfortunately dont get the renault as am sure would be quite a hit...and the leaf is due to be replaced so hopefully a new lease in life with the new model that comes 1
proftournesol Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 It looks like the Tim Watts article is several years old as there's also been over 700 Tesla sales in Australia since he wrote that. There is a small 'subsidy' for EVs in the form of a higher LCT threshold that will save Tesla buyers around $2000 but offers nothing to buyers of cheaper EVs. The Zoe would be great here as would the eGolf but they will not be offered in the face of Government indifference. Renault attempted to raise Government interest in the Twizy here but its bizarrely classified as a quad bike and not road registrable anywhere in Australia. Shame because I'd buy one for $12,000 GM has said that the new generation Volt wont be available here in the absence of any EV incentives. Its unfortunate because it is supposed to be a big improvement on the first generation Volt. 1
betty boop Posted January 4, 2016 Author Posted January 4, 2016 It looks like the Tim Watts article is several years old as there's also been over 700 Tesla sales in Australia since he wrote that. There is a small 'subsidy' for EVs in the form of a higher LCT threshold that will save Tesla buyers around $2000 but offers nothing to buyers of cheaper EVs. The Zoe would be great here as would the eGolf but they will not be offered in the face of Government indifference. Renault attempted to raise Government interest in the Twizy here but its bizarrely classified as a quad bike and not road registrable anywhere in Australia. Shame because I'd buy one for $12,000 GM has said that the new generation Volt wont be available here in the absence of any EV incentives. Its unfortunate because it is supposed to be a big improvement on the first generation Volt. mid 2013 for the article and pretty relevant I think yep we are pretty poorly done here for options was my point earlier. and a government that couldnt give a monkeys either way. but then again they are coming off a hiding to nothing with supporting car makers here and helping them exit - so unlikely overseas makers are going to be getting any hand outs anytime soon I suspect. 1
TomAus Posted January 7, 2016 Posted January 7, 2016 (edited) I'd like to see some electric city runabouts that would do 40km a day and reckon it would suit a lot of people ...even if its say 50km to leave some margin...ideal I would say as 2nd car to pick up the kids, grab some shopping doing and erand. love to see it I agree that there is a market for these types of cars. I would get one myself if they were available at a reasonable price. Edited January 7, 2016 by TomAus 1
betty boop Posted January 7, 2016 Author Posted January 7, 2016 the GM Volt didnt work. so they have the chevy Bolt http://www.cnet.com/products/2017-chevrolet-bolt/ under $30k (USD) after their $7.5k federal rebate. so still quite pricy for a compact. who knows if we will get it here either. 1
betty boop Posted January 9, 2016 Author Posted January 9, 2016 http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/aussiederived-electric-car-revealed-20160107-gm103n.html bizarre isn't it ...it seems it was greatly aussie designed...will go on sale in the us at the end of the ear. but unlikely we will get it....but then without the government incentives they get overseas, perhaps they dont want it to be the sales failure here the volt was. 1
betty boop Posted February 1, 2016 Author Posted February 1, 2016 http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/toyota-to-introduce-corolla-hybrid-20160201-gmihhi.html Toyota to introduce corolla hybrid... "Toyota says it can be driven in an electric-only mode for up to two kilometres, depending on driving conditions." is that a joke ? not sure why anyone would bother. people will still buy it of the "feel good" hey I'm driving a hybrid....its electric ! 1
Briz Vegas Posted February 2, 2016 Posted February 2, 2016 so its a Prius in sheeps clothing. Maybe more sales for Toyota if it looks like their biggest seller. There is also a Rav4 hydrid for the US this year that i wanted to recommend to a friend but honestly its a waste effort design. It gets 7.6l or similar per 100 km. A 308 wagon would have a much bigger interior and gets you about 5.6l per 100km ( thats a guess, my 308 hatch is rated at 5.2l so i added a bit for the extra weight, too lazy to check the figures in this humidity). If i wanted a high riding crossover i would grab a manual Citroen Cactus for mid 4l economy thats to a 1050kg body. The auto would be hard to recommend as it is a diesel and has a tricky single clutch automated manual, which takes a bit of skill to drive smoothly, or so I am told. Only hydrid that interests me is the 308R. Isn't this thread meant to be about electric cars. Drove a Leaf again today. From a practical perspective it is still yet to woo me. The sat nav is rubbish compared to the 308s and the brake pedal is heavy and not progressive. Its very white goods to drive, if unoffensive.wish i could try a Renault Zoe. 1
betty boop Posted February 2, 2016 Author Posted February 2, 2016 the new prius is a pretty sad looking thing so perhaps this is toyotas angle to get people buying into segment that wouldn't otherwise. the cactus is a claimed 3.5L/100. of course claims dont always turn into reality..... one things for sure we need some real interest in this segment. whats the reason the zoe wont come here I wonder. am sure it shares a lot with the leaf. perhaps when the new model leaf lands might be a different situation. 1
Briz Vegas Posted February 7, 2016 Posted February 7, 2016 (edited) Interesting electric racer from late 2013. 4000nm of torque from 0 RPM at the rear wheels and under 1000 kg in weight. Clearly that means the racer is going to be fast and it has big fat tyres to put that power down. What is surprising is that by comparison a road going family sedan (Tesla P90D) has the same claimed 0 to 60mph acceleration of 2.9 seconds. It weights twice as much and will go all day. It would seem that what they are hitting here is the limitations of putting power down via wheels/rubber. frankly 2.9 seconds is stupid fast anyway. The driver in this video implies that it is the driver that are at their limits when driving this car. Never a good thing. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q_cRqcbXAs4 PS. 1.779 seconds to 100 in an electric motorised "sand shoe"....that's more like it. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bO7HlsAbhQk Edited February 7, 2016 by Briz Vegas 1
proftournesol Posted February 7, 2016 Posted February 7, 2016 The problem with EVs isn't the motor power, in fact the Tesla 90D rarely uses the whole 790 nominal HP from its 2 motors as the real issues are around managing generated battery heat and carrying the large current from the battery to the motor. The Tesla 90D uses a special fuse to manage Ludicrous mode but even then it isn't useable continuously. If you take a Tesla to the track it will power limit after a few laps to manage the battery heat. The racing EVs have found the best set of compromises to manage this 1
betty boop Posted February 29, 2016 Author Posted February 29, 2016 the citroen DS E-Tense concept for the geneva show, http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/citroen-reveal-new-ds-etense-concept-20160229-gn68mg.html DS brings over its expertise garnered from Formula E to help create its electric engine which can produce 300kW and 516Nm. It is claimed the concept would have a top speed of 250km/h and be able to sprint from 0-100km/h in 4.5 seconds while also having a range of 310-360km depending on the mixture of highway and city driving. good range and performance there, though price if when they release something like it ? 1
Jake Posted February 29, 2016 Posted February 29, 2016 My missus wants a Tesla. Oh joy! Now, where did I put all that money...
proftournesol Posted February 29, 2016 Posted February 29, 2016 the citroen DS E-Tense concept for the geneva show, http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/citroen-reveal-new-ds-etense-concept-20160229-gn68mg.html DS brings over its expertise garnered from Formula E to help create its electric engine which can produce 300kW and 516Nm. It is claimed the concept would have a top speed of 250km/h and be able to sprint from 0-100km/h in 4.5 seconds while also having a range of 310-360km depending on the mixture of highway and city driving. good range and performance there, though price if when they release something like it ? Its an electric motor, not an engine! Its pretty hard to build an EV without fantastic performance, the key will be the recharging infrastructure. France are way behind the rest of Europe in EV infrastructure and car sales, there've been more Tesla sales here than in France for instance. The trouble is that they backed the wrong horse in incentivising diesels but realise the extent of the problem now - Paris has a pollution problem despite having almost no heavy industry. Its about time Citroen started to build something interesting, they've been a shadow of their former selves ever since Peugeot took them over and starved them of development funds, they've even dropped hydro-pneumatic suspension Tesla Model S is the sort of car that Citroen should have built 1
betty boop Posted March 3, 2016 Author Posted March 3, 2016 morgans electric 3 wheeler... http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/morgan-reveal-electric-threewheeler-20160303-gn9ati.html cant believe the price ... but atleast its the same price as the petrol version... 1
proftournesol Posted March 5, 2016 Posted March 5, 2016 Forget peak oil, the oil crash is coming anyway, probably sooner that you think https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwHN6QQWv2g 1
betty boop Posted March 5, 2016 Author Posted March 5, 2016 audi's message to the austrlaian government....sauggesting people need to be given a reason to buy electric cars... http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/audi-chairmans-message-to-australian-government-20160304-gnascg.html 1
proftournesol Posted March 5, 2016 Posted March 5, 2016 In Victoria you get a $100 incentive reduction in registration fee $17,000+ Luxury Car Tax, mainly a tax on the battery price. There are Government disincentives on EV purchase in Australia 1
betty boop Posted March 5, 2016 Author Posted March 5, 2016 $100 whoopee do. LCT is only relevant for those buying luxury tax bracket cars. if large scale take up of electric cars is something they want to promote and incentivise then it will be cars below the luxury tax that need some reason for people to buy. 1
proftournesol Posted March 5, 2016 Posted March 5, 2016 $100 whoopee do. LCT is only relevant for those buying luxury tax bracket cars. if large scale take up of electric cars is something they want to promote and incentivise then it will be cars below the luxury tax that need some reason for people to buy. The issue is that EVs are priced differently. Certainly at this stage, the major cost item is the battery and if buyers want the range then the battery will be expensive. In the case of the Model S (the only EV with the range) this raised the price of the car above the EV threshold, effectively taxing the battery. Not all EVs will cost as much as the Tesla of course but with LCT the Model S would have started at $70,000 when it went on sale here. One suggestion from Tesla was to be allowed to sell the car without a battery and have the battery as an after purchase item. They are able to do this with software features like Autopilot but were not allowed to sell the car without the battery. Apart from the LCT being unnecessary anyway, it shouldn't apply to batteries. Other countries offer incentives like : direct rebates (US) free home charging connections (UK and Holland) rego discounts, free parking and special EV lanes (Norway) no connection tax (London) in all cases EV subsidies have lead to massive increases in sales 1
betty boop Posted March 5, 2016 Author Posted March 5, 2016 our problem is two fold... we neither have the options .... in available choice of vehicles(that other regions do)....and neither do we have the incentives is there any wonder it aint going anywhere very fast as far as sales for EVs. 1
proftournesol Posted March 5, 2016 Posted March 5, 2016 If you look at segments though, Tesla have provided charging infrastructure and their sales exceed combines sales for S Class, A8, 7 Series and also exceed Maserati Quattroporte. We are the most developed country with the least developed infrastructure for EVs. Unfortunately the AUD$ has dropped, imagine the impact of a AUD$30,000 Tesla Model 3. It'll probably start at $50,000 now. Carlos Ghosn had a private inspection of the Chevy Bolt when it was released and left the star furious at the efforts of his Nissan engineers, the new Leaf is behind in every area. Expect rapid progress in the car development. The big issue here will be charging infrastructure, most apartment buildings for instance will be lucky to be able to install 1 or 2 chargers at most. It will be an opportunity for shopping centres and shopping strips though 1
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