Emubitter Posted February 9, 2015 Posted February 9, 2015 Hello all, I haven't posted a lot but I have enjoyed reading the generally intelligent discussions in these forums. I am at a crossroads with my two channel system, I am considering a total revamp and going a different direction. The alternative is to persevere with the HE approach and develop this further. It is getting to the point where I no longer trust my own judgement and unfortunately I do not have any friends with a similar interest in quality audio... If there are any SNAers in Perth willing to come and have a listen and offer an honest opinion I would be most grateful and happy to arrange a small GTG at my place. (Attadale WA) Alternately you may care to comment based on my system details below.. Speakers: Oris 150 Horns w. Lowther EX4 drivers, Onken base cabs w. 10" woofers Amps: Modded Audionote P2SE, Grounged Grid pre, Transcendent OTL Sources: Gyrodeck,SME IV, Transcendent Phono stage.. CD players etc Your first question will obviously be something like.." What do I think is wrong or right about it?".... Well, this is really hard to answer. At times I still love the immediacy, speed and presence the system can depict. My ears are probably not much good past 14000 HZ so I do not think the HF roll off should be a source of dissatisfaction... the bass could go lower I guess but my room is only a medium size lounge room, no high ceilings.. it could be a futile quest to go looking for the last octave of bass. Maybe I am just restless for something new and exciting.. I have been looking at second hand ads like ML2 Reference and SF Guarneri Memento but of course that will require a revision of amplifiers etc.... Anyway, sorry for the somewhat rambling post, I will appreciate any comment or hit me up to arrange a listen. Kind Regards, Ken
Newman Posted February 9, 2015 Posted February 9, 2015 Hi Ken, and welcome. Can't help you in person from this distance, I'm afraid. First thoughts: your equipment is excellent, but how you apply it is critical. The EX4 I would not point straight at my face if I were you. Try a few offset angles, firing wide of the listening seat. A sub is definitely a good idea; your room size is no reason to abandon the final octave. Subs are tricky if you don't measure and EQ them, so be warned. cheers
andyr Posted February 9, 2015 Posted February 9, 2015 Hello all, I haven't posted a lot but I have enjoyed reading the generally intelligent discussions in these forums. I am at a crossroads with my two channel system, I am considering a total revamp and going a different direction. The alternative is to persevere with the HE approach and develop this further. It is getting to the point where I no longer trust my own judgement and unfortunately I do not have any friends with a similar interest in quality audio... If there are any SNAers in Perth willing to come and have a listen and offer an honest opinion I would be most grateful and happy to arrange a small GTG at my place. (Attadale WA) Alternately you may care to comment based on my system details below.. Speakers: Oris 150 Horns w. Lowther EX4 drivers, Onken base cabs w. 10" woofers Amps: Modded Audionote P2SE, Grounged Grid pre, Transcendent OTL Sources: Gyrodeck,SME IV, Transcendent Phono stage.. CD players etc Your first question will obviously be something like.." What do I think is wrong or right about it?".... Well, this is really hard to answer. At times I still love the immediacy, speed and presence the system can depict. My ears are probably not much good past 14000 HZ so I do not think the HF roll off should be a source of dissatisfaction... the bass could go lower I guess but my room is only a medium size lounge room, no high ceilings.. it could be a futile quest to go looking for the last octave of bass. Maybe I am just restless for something new and exciting.. I have been looking at second hand ads like ML2 Reference and SF Guarneri Memento but of course that will require a revision of amplifiers etc.... Anyway, sorry for the somewhat rambling post, I will appreciate any comment or hit me up to arrange a listen. Kind Regards, Ken I'm sure you will find some SNAers in Perth who will be delighted to visit and give you their input. You might have to supply some good red, though. I just wanted to make a comment re. your statement "the bass could go lower I guess but my room is only a medium size lounge room, no high ceilings. It could be a futile quest to go looking for the last octave of bass". I forget the equation but theory says that you won't be able to hear bass below a frequency which is related to the biggest dimension of your room. Hence your concern about trying for the last octave of bass (20 - 40Hz). However, the 'theory' would appear to be ill-founded ... given the prodigious amounts of bass you can hear from certain car systems. So I would 'go for it'! But for this lowest bass octave, I suggest you need to add a pair of, say, 15" subs to your current setup. This is what I am doing, anyway. Regards, Andy
tuyen Posted February 9, 2015 Posted February 9, 2015 (edited) being a fellow HE system enthusiast, consider me very interested in attending. Welcome to swing by mine to see what's going on here too. I'm sure my mate @@Upfront would be interested too if he is free! Edited February 9, 2015 by tuyen
b.d Posted February 9, 2015 Posted February 9, 2015 I'd be keen too if I make it back to Perth in time, currently stuck in Europe. I know whereof you speak Ken, I need less reason than you to swap speakers. But something worth pointing out is that even amongst high-efficiency aficionados there will be little agreement about what system or sound is 'better'. Me and Tuyen have both been around these traps for some time, and usually end up with fairly different high-eff systems, with different tonal balances etc. Better might be to try to hear as many WA systems as you can and see if there's anything you prefer to your own. I'd also say be wary of the pull of reviews and enthusiastic talk of other speaker types. The grass will always be greener on the other side and the roundabout can go on indefinitely. The other thing I find I need to be careful of is the pull of 'impressive systems, as opposed to those that engage musically. Its sometimes easier to be swayed by things like frequency extension, and detail, than by subtler aspects that perhaps count for more, like dynamics (incl at low volumes) and tone. Sometimes these things need living with a system rather than just a quick audition to prove their worth. Seing as your speakers are fairly hard to come by, if you had the funds it might be a good idea to buy some second hand MLs or SF and live with both systems for a while. I say this after again swinging back towards hi-eff speakers (to me dynamics are really the most valuable quality of a system) and wishing I still had my old Azura or Bastanis systems - not so easy just to get another pair in the house. But yeah, a good sub can add a lot to most systems and is probably something you'll live with for a long time through a lot of speakers, so I'd second this vote too. Cheers B 1
Newman Posted February 10, 2015 Posted February 10, 2015 I just wanted to make a comment re. your statement "the bass could go lower I guess but my room is only a medium size lounge room, no high ceilings. It could be a futile quest to go looking for the last octave of bass". I forget the equation but theory says that you won't be able to hear bass below a frequency which is related to the biggest dimension of your room. Hence your concern about trying for the last octave of bass (20 - 40Hz). However, the 'theory' would appear to be ill-founded ... given the prodigious amounts of bass you can hear from certain car systems. No such theory exists or ever existed. It's what I call an 'audiophile theory'. -_- What would such an equation predict for a headphone? 1
acg Posted February 10, 2015 Posted February 10, 2015 No such theory exists or ever existed. It's what I call an 'audiophile theory'. -_- What would such an equation predict for a headphone? Perhaps the headphone bass response is proportional to the amount of vacant brain cavity available to horn load the headphones... But don't hold me to that one...hehe 1
Newman Posted February 10, 2015 Posted February 10, 2015 Can't.......get........enough.........bassss!!!! S-T-I-L-L N-O-O-O-O B-A-A-A-S-S-S-S!!!
Doncentric Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 Hi Ken, I will put my hand up too. I have not heard system like yours and will give whatever input I can. Tuyen really has the experience for critical listening over me though. And you would always be welcome to hear my system too. Regards, Don
Paul Spencer Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 Hope the OP doesn't mind a little diversion, but this is an interesting side track ... No such theory exists or ever existed. It's what I call an 'audiophile theory'. -_- What would such an equation predict for a headphone? I think this one is the result of a Chinese whisper that has been passed on for decades. The smaller the space, the deeper the bass! I'm sure you will find some SNAers in Perth who will be delighted to visit and give you their input. You might have to supply some good red, though. I just wanted to make a comment re. your statement "the bass could go lower I guess but my room is only a medium size lounge room, no high ceilings. It could be a futile quest to go looking for the last octave of bass". I forget the equation but theory says that you won't be able to hear bass below a frequency which is related to the biggest dimension of your room. Hence your concern about trying for the last octave of bass (20 - 40Hz). However, the 'theory' would appear to be ill-founded ... given the prodigious amounts of bass you can hear from certain car systems. So I would 'go for it'! But for this lowest bass octave, I suggest you need to add a pair of, say, 15" subs to your current setup. This is what I am doing, anyway. Regards, Andy When the dimensions between a pair of boundaries get smaller than the wavelength, it's not that you stop hearing bass but rather the space becomes uniformly pressurized. In other words, you stop getting room modes with decreasing frequency. It's all about the relationship between frequency, room dimensions, wavelength. Above say 200 Hz you get modes spaced so close together that we stop talking about room modes. We think of sound waves as traveling in geometric lines, we talk about reflections, etc. From about 200 Hz to the bottom of the modal range (say 40 Hz as an example) you get modes due to the relationship between wavelengths and room dimensions. We don't think of sound in this range as following a geometric path but we think in terms of modal regions, wave velocity and pressure regions. Below the modal range the bass simply fills the space without modal variation. In a larger space, like a concert hall, the modal region occurs below the relevant passband and so you don't see a discussion of room modes. The modal region is pushed lower due to much larger dimensions. So where does the myth come in? I think somewhere it was said that you can't get good bass in the modal region. The true message got lost in translation. The ideal room is either very small or very large. Too small for modes to develop (headphones) or large enough that they fall below the audible range. Unfortunately domestic rooms all put modes in the range of about 25 - 200 Hz. Hello all, I haven't posted a lot but I have enjoyed reading the generally intelligent discussions in these forums. I am at a crossroads with my two channel system, I am considering a total revamp and going a different direction. The alternative is to persevere with the HE approach and develop this further. It is getting to the point where I no longer trust my own judgement and unfortunately I do not have any friends with a similar interest in quality audio... If there are any SNAers in Perth willing to come and have a listen and offer an honest opinion I would be most grateful and happy to arrange a small GTG at my place. (Attadale WA) Alternately you may care to comment based on my system details below.. Speakers: Oris 150 Horns w. Lowther EX4 drivers, Onken base cabs w. 10" woofers Amps: Modded Audionote P2SE, Grounged Grid pre, Transcendent OTL Sources: Gyrodeck,SME IV, Transcendent Phono stage.. CD players etc Your first question will obviously be something like.." What do I think is wrong or right about it?".... Well, this is really hard to answer. At times I still love the immediacy, speed and presence the system can depict. My ears are probably not much good past 14000 HZ so I do not think the HF roll off should be a source of dissatisfaction... the bass could go lower I guess but my room is only a medium size lounge room, no high ceilings.. it could be a futile quest to go looking for the last octave of bass. Maybe I am just restless for something new and exciting.. I have been looking at second hand ads like ML2 Reference and SF Guarneri Memento but of course that will require a revision of amplifiers etc.... Anyway, sorry for the somewhat rambling post, I will appreciate any comment or hit me up to arrange a listen. Kind Regards, Ken Perhaps it might help if you can try to pin down the source of your discontent. Easier said than done sometimes. The first thought that comes to mind is that you have a boutique system. By this I mean speakers that are likely to have a personality. Often these have quirks that emphasize certain aspects of your music. Sometimes it can be an enhancement, other times a problem. It can also end up leading you into altering the music you listen to as you come to realise you have a system that favours certain types of music. Onken bass cabs often have drivers put in them that are mismatched. I've come across some where the box volume was half a dozen times the correct size for the driver in question. The question I would ask is what attracts you to HE speakers? High sensitivity does not necessarily mean a different sound but most of the things that are done to make speakers more sensitive will often give them a personality. Some like the idea of boutique speakers. Others find that their technical flaws are charming. Then others like myself like the dynamics and the effortless presentation as the volume climbs up. This actually excludes many HE speakers because a lot of them actually fall apart beyond moderate levels. My suggestion is this. When you listen, think about what you aren't happy with. Look for specific things. GTGs are fun and usually more social than helpful with finding answers. I suggest you are more likely to find your answer or at least get a handle on the problems in quietly listening without distraction. Listen for specific things you can describe. 4
Mohan Varkey Posted February 15, 2015 Posted February 15, 2015 Ken, I have listened to the Oris 150 many (14?)years ago using PM4A and driven by a 0.5W single tube 417A/5842 amp designed by me. Listening room was rather large, perhaps 8m x 7m. Imaging was larger than life, soul filling. This was a Lowther Club meeting and almost everyone gave the thumps up. The owner of this system gave up after a couple of years because he could not satisfactorily marry his Karlsson Bins and Onken horns using vintage Altec drivers. The Oris is an enthusiast's horn and perhaps Bert may have gone too far with this design. A shorter horn may be more easier to integrate with a bass enclosure. Also consider the dispersion patterns. Being in Perth, you may have heard of Martin Seddon. He is a Lowther Club member. He used to live in Melbourne. He is an Oil Well Engineer and designs horns as a hobby. You may have heard of the Azura Horn. Years ago, he was developing another horn, back as well as front loaded horn using a single (PM2A?) Lowther driver. From some of the other components in your system, I would gather that you have not learned to compromise in terms of frequency response. Pardon me for speaking out loud. Some 35 years ago, on one of my trips to Tokyo, I had the opportunity to listen to a true audiophile system. Unlike us, these guys make their own components and are very proud of their efforts, because their systems reflect their personality; much like the Bonsai Tree culture. There were 4 horns per side, all hand carved from wood, each driven by compression driver and its respective 1W valve amps. The crossover was in the design of the output transformers. Music simply flowed from this system at ease. Very natural and coherent and above all, startlingly dynamic. Theoretically speaking, any horn covering more than 2 octaves is a compromise. I have listened to Transcendent, Graf and Atmasphere OTL amplifiers. In my opinion these are a bit strident with Lowthers. For High Efficiency systems, the ultimate power amp would be single tube power amp. There was a 4W power amp on the NET using compactron tubes. I like the concept. Grounded Grid is a very wide bandwidth topology and so should be good. Read 'wide bandwith' as excellent transient response. Regards,Mohan
Owen Y Posted February 16, 2015 Posted February 16, 2015 Hi Ken - I have similar 140Hz Tractrix midhorns (Oris were 150Hz Fc). I used Lowthers for over 10yrs - PM2C, PM4. I gave up on them in the end. One of the problems with Lowthers (& also an appealing aspect) is the shelved-up upper midrange - 2.5kHz - 8kHz.. The midhorn lifts the 200+Hz region, which helps tonal balance, but ultimately the peaky upper range will always tend to overshadow the lower octaves. The EX drivers have the new whizzer & 'holey' phase plug, which attempt to ameliorate these issues. Newman's angling recommendation is mandatory with Lowthers as off-axis response is flatter. And I concur with Mohan, IME too, Lowthers are unforgiving with many amp types. Your 10" Mini Onkens are smallish drivers & the vented cab probably drops off like a cliff below maybe 70-80Hz(?). You could try wall and/or corner loading them, which will help extension. However IMHO the main problem is the Lowther. Psychoacoustically, the ear will always be drawn to the upper range 'presence'. Some folks add a notch filter - I haven''t gone down that road. I found that the inexpensive SEAS FA22RCZ driver to be much warmer, flatter response & forgiving. It still has some whizzer upper range problems, but I cut off the upper end with a simple xover & add a tweeter. Sorry, this is disjointed information, but if anything strikes a chord, I can elaborate a bit. (You can see my midhorns at the link below.) Cheers, Owen Dark Lantern blog - http://darklanternforowen.wordpress.com/
Mohan Varkey Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 Hi Owen, nice pictures. Quite a few of our Lowther Club members are into photography as well. A common trait perhaps. IMHO Lowther is like a Ferrari. You cannot drive it on dirt roads and expect good handling. The Front end is very important. LPs are the way to go. Koetsu Rosewood and Goldbug Brier are my preferred choices. More recently, I am listening to an expensive Lyra cartridge.There are only a handful of CD players that mate well with Lowthers. I have been using Cambridge CD3 player (made in England) for more than 15 years. Other CD players that mate well with Lowthers are Stax Quattro, Copeland, DCS, an old Nakamichi etc.. In the early days with Lowther, It took me some months to figure out why Lowthers sounded better in the next room. Never toe-in as yourself and Newman have pointed out. I am a Lowther person and I would not compromise on the musical detail, transient response and dynamics of Lowthers. Quad ESL57are slow by comparison. My Stax F83s at home are ever so slighty more responsive than Lowthers. I am talking about Piano recordings. Regards, Mohan
Owen Y Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 Thanks Mohan - got too many hobbies I'm afraid :-) Cheers, Owen Dark Lantern blog - http://darklanternforowen.wordpress.com/
Emubitter Posted March 26, 2015 Author Posted March 26, 2015 Gentlemen, By way of update.. belated thanks to those who have responded.. I do appreciate your thoughts and your willingness to share them. @Mohan thanks in particular for chiming in, I well remember an afternoon with you a few years ago when I was in Melbourne for business and had a listen to your beautiful amplifier.. I have been a bit busy with our new craft brewery venture. Northbridge Brewing Co in Perth. A month or so ago I had the pleasure of meeting Tuyen, Domcentric and Speedie at my house for a very enjoyable afternoon of listening, fiddling with stuff and beer... thanks guys it was good fun. Right now I think that I just have not heard enough different systems to understand what is possible with different approaches (and budgets), what I need to do over the next few months is get out and about a little to broaden my horizons. In the meantime I have resurrected my microphone and REW software and am relearning the art/science of measurement, which has not been without its pitfalls. The bigger challenge then being to correctly interpret said measurements.. Cheers, Ken 1
davewantsmoore Posted March 26, 2015 Posted March 26, 2015 Anyway, sorry for the somewhat rambling post, I will appreciate any comment or hit me up to arrange a listen. Yes, I doubt upper or lower extension is the issue. Did you design the integration / crossover of the horn and the onken? What frequency / slope do they crossover at?
Emubitter Posted March 27, 2015 Author Posted March 27, 2015 The Onken cabinet plans, driver selection and plate amp spec were part of Bert Doppenberg's package with the Oris 150 horns, I cannot be sure but I believe the plate amp has a 12 dB/octave roll off... the nominal crossover point is variable with a pot on the amp from 0 -160 Hz. I have set by ear close to 160 Hz and that also coincides with the recommendation. The Lowther EX4 drivers in the horns roll off naturally at the low and high end ie: full range signal applied... TBH bass integration has never been an identified concern but I am interested in getting some decent measurements in room.. Cheers, Ken
Mohan Varkey Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) Thanks Ken for remembering the occasion. If I recall, you had dropped in from Brisbane. The amp that you had a listen to is a Parallel Single Ended 6C41C driven by my favourite 417A. Just two stages and DC coupled. I am continuing to use the same amp for demos and Lowther Club meetings. Edited March 30, 2015 by Mohan Varkey 1
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