What kind of AMP ?

[SilverWolf]

Hi all,

Had a question about adding a AMP to my 2 main speakers which was originally suggested to me some time ago but the original AVR I had didn't have Pre-outs. The AVR I currently have (Pioneer VSX-AX2ASS) does have pre-outs. Now my 2 main speakers are rated 300w @ 8ohm while the centre and 4 rears are 150w @ 8ohm and I think the Pioneer AVR I have is about 130w @ 8ohm output (sticker said some uber 250w x 7 originally lol).

So my question is would the sound and also volume improve by adding a 2 channel AMP to drive th 2 mains and if so would something like in the link below be suitable for the task ?

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/BRANDNEW-BIEM...742.m153.l1262

[Grumpy]

YES!! a dedicated 2 channel power amp will sound better for music.

The one in the link, I have no idea about though.

[SilverWolf]

I don't listen to the system much for music mainly just HT use but I need to turn the volume to almost full to get the level of sound I like. I guessed adding a AMP would solve the issue but I just wanted to know if something like the one I linked is the sort that I'd need. They do have them in higher outputs if thats better for my speakers. I am also thinking of adding to more 300w/8oHm speakers to my system as an upgrade to my current fronts and then using the old mains as rears so I guess I'd need maybe a 2nd amp then also ?

If not the type I listed what would be ok maybe ?

[Grumpy]

It doesn't seem right that you have to have your volume turned up to almost full, especially for DVD's.

The ratings of the speakers really don't mean much when they are quoting watts into ohms..

Please don't take offence at this but are you experienced with these things?

Your Pioneer should have plenty of volume for most systems and homes.

[Jake]

Gday Mitcon,

According to a brochure I found on your amp it has these features.

Audio Features

Source Direct Switch Yes

D/A audio converter 192 kHz/24-bit

Motor Driven Volume Control Electric

Midnight Listening Mode Yes

Impedance switching 6 to 8-16ohm

Sound Retriever Yes

1. Have you tried switching it to Source Direct mode? If so is the volume problem the same? This mode should bypass all the digital processing which could possibly otherwise interfere with volume levels.

2. Are you sure you dont have the Midnight Listening Mode activated?

3. Is the impedance switching manual or automatic? If its manual is it set correctly for your speakers?

4. Finally, have you set the channel levels for all your speakers? This should be an option in your menu system somewhere. You may have the volume level set too low for the front speakers.

Cheers,

Jake

[Grumpy]

Glad someone else has dropped in . Jake I think mitcon means in HT mode, so the source direct mode would not come into play; only with 2 channels

[SilverWolf]

Grumpy, I guess firstly I must say that the system does go loudish, but I just really like LOUD lol. I don't have the volume at max most the time so there is still some volume left but I just thought it would be louder at the setting I normally have it at. The speakers aren't high end so maybe not that easily driven though I do quite enjoy the tones they produce.

So anyways

I take no offence at pretty much anything as everyone has a different opinion and theres always something to learn so no worries there. I don't know if experienced is the correct term I would use but I do understand enough and have had quite a few systems and set-up HT systems many times for other people. That said most systems I have set-up for others have been far better than my own but what I have is all my budget allows.

So I do have a understanding but no where as in-depth as I would think alot of folk here have. I also like to ask questions even if they are silly as alot of people who have even less understanding often just don;t ask or are afraid of asking and getting flamed.

Jake, Grumpy was correct as I normally use the AVR in one of the HT processing modes. I don't normally use midnight modes but that said once you reach a certain volume it turns that off itself. Midnight is just like loudness and normally only works at fairly low volume levels.

The impedance switching is manual and set correctly (currently 8ohm) and yes I always adjust the individual channel levels myself myself rather than using auto settings and such.

As I said I guess I just like louder than what maybe the average joe wants but just also wanted to drive the speakers more efficiency and take some work off the AVR. The drivers in my speakers are fairly cheap ones which don't seem to be that easily driven.

Edited August 6, 2008 by Mitcon

[Jake]

Gday Mitcon,

Well you seem to have all the bases covered. It could be the specs are optimistic? I have no experience with your equipment so Im out of ideas.

But there are plenty of other boffins here.

Cheers,

Jake

[SilverWolf]

Thanks Jake & Grumpy for the help/input.

I think your right about the specs, unless you get into really good quality gear they always over-rate specs. I guess my problem is I want more than I need and than I can afford. I can live with things the way they are fine, was just wondering if something like the cheap amp I posted would just help improve things a tiny bit. I'd love a nice multi-channel amp like a decent Rotel and I really like the Redgum also but alas on a pension I'll just have to make do untill the lotto numbers come up lol.

Still I'm learning from it all and hopefully it will help other newbies also even if just to have a better understanding.

[Grumpy]

Mitcon my Denon receiver is rated at 105 w RMS and is too loud to have it anywhere near full volume (my speakers are very efficient though and I have now added a 2 channel power amp) Your receiver is rated at 120w into 8ohms, so it should be good for some LOUD movies and music.

I'm a bit of a dummy when it comes to the tech side of things but I feel at home here; it's that sort of place.

I'm on a pension too and understand your 'lotto' dream - get in line:D

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Hi all,

Had a question about adding a AMP to my 2 main speakers which was originally suggested to me some time ago but the original AVR I had didn't have Pre-outs. The AVR I currently have (Pioneer VSX-AX2ASS) does have pre-outs. Now my 2 main speakers are rated 300w @ 8ohm while the centre and 4 rears are 150w @ 8ohm and I think the Pioneer AVR I have is about 130w @ 8ohm output (sticker said some uber 250w x 7 originally lol).

So my question is would the sound and also volume improve by adding a 2 channel AMP to drive th 2 mains and if so would something like in the link below be suitable for the task ?

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/BRANDNEW-BIEM...742.m153.l1262

Here is a list of things you need to change, in order to improve the sound quality of a system. I've placed them in order of importance (give or take):

Speakers

Speakers

Speakers

Speakers

Speakers

Room acoustics

Room acoustics

Preamp

Power amp.

Got it?

If the sound quality is inadequate, then attend to speakers way before anything else. If you like loud, then choose speakers with a high efficiency. The difference between 150 Watt Chinese receiver and a 350 Watt Chinese power amp is 4/5ths of bugger all. Around 3.7dB, in fact. For a clearly noticable increase in SPL, you need to look to at least 10dB more level. IOW: You need 1.5kW. Do you think you speakers will cope?

[Andy_G]

Have you considered that your speakers might just be very inefficient. What exactly are they?

Maybe this is where you should look for a solution ?

[SilverWolf]

Yes the speakers are very inefficient, that is the problem I know. I also know that new (much higher quality drivers) will fix the issue, but that said it doesn't fix my problem. If I could afford that I would have simply done that. That is where the problem lays, I can't afford that quality of speaker/drivers so I was hoping to see if I could just squeeze a little more out of what I had with a cheap increase in power to my current speakers.

The drivers in the speakers are cheap no name units out of China. I do plan on making some new speakers "one day" but that day just seems to get further away all the time and my budget just gets tighter all the time.

[SilverWolf]

As I said before the sound "quality" isn't what was my problem, I wanted more volume. I was quite happy with the tones and imaging of the speakers I currently have.

[kaanage]

Run the mains as small and put the budget towards a really good sub. Then you should find that your system has a lot more dynamic headroom. Most people with large mains think that they would "waste" them somehow by running them as small but with bass redirection, the amp will power them just fine at almost any reasonable volume.

Bass requires lots of power, especially with smallish drivers so diverting all of the bass signal to a good sub should make your system perform much better for your requirements.

BTW, most pro power amps are fan cooled and can be quite noisy. Most audio amps are passively cooled while some like ME amps have fans but they don't tend to run at high speed apart from during the cool down cycle.

Edited August 7, 2008 by kaanage

[SilverWolf]

Very good thing to point out kaanage though I already have the mains set as "smalls". Infact I have all my speakers set as small even though they all qualify as large as I find I prefer the way the sound set like this. As to the sub lol I'm good there also as mines a little overkill. I think it's 15" driver from memory and it's being driven by a 350w amp and the folks at the end of my street hate it hehehe.

I also adjusted the crossovers so anything from 150Hz and down goes directly to the sub. Have tweaked things as much as I can to help with standing waves and such also for the lower end of frequencies.

Edited August 7, 2008 by Mitcon

[kaanage]

Hmmm. Your mains must be horribly inefficient. A 150Hz crossover is far higher than I would prefer (I like 80-100Hz).

I'd try borrowing a Rotel power amp or something of that nature for a test before splashing out on a power amp. It may just be the speakers dynamically compressing rather than the receiver running out of steam.

[RichardN]

Hi Mitcon, I have very quickly run through the thread (don't have much time) and apologies if it's already been said, but there has been someone else with almost exactly the same problem as you either here or over at dtv. I think they even had the same AVR, can't be sure.

I think they solved it by adding an integrated with HT bypass (or was it an Elektra Theatron, again can't be sure)

I think the point is, to get this AVR to drive their speakers without having to crank it right up they went down the path of adding a power amp (or integrated) of some sort and it solved that particular problem. I think then though that the bug really bit and things got changed around a lot, but the initial problem was sovled

When I get some time I will try to dig it up.

EDIT: Most AVRs out there can not drive 5/6/7 speakers to their full rated output, although there are a few exceptions, Harman Kardon that I know of.

Edited August 7, 2008 by RichardN

[SilverWolf]

Hi Richard,

I'll have a search about, would be good to know. If you do find it at some point when you have the time a link would be wonderful.

I tend to agree with your thoughts on AVR's powering multi-channel. I guess it's not so noticeable or much of a problem when you have very efficient speakers. I will prolly make some better speakers one day but just knowing when that will be is the hard part. Hence why I started this thread asking about the cheap amp listed in my original post in this thread. I guess my line of thinking was it will hopefully improve things slightly till my budget will let me follow other paths.

Mind you I'm still going to be putting in my lotto ticket every week lol.

[kaanage]

What Richard has suggest is almost identical to what you are proposing to do, Mitcon. The only difference is that he is suggesting using an integrated amp with HT bypass.

The advantage of this over your approach (just power amp) is for 2 channel listening where you can have the sources connected to the integrated amp rather than going through the AVR where you will almost certainly get a cleaner signal path. It doesn't sound like this is a priority for you, though (benefit of reading the thread properly??) so it would be added cost for no benefit (over just a power amp).

You can use an integrated amp that doesn't have HT bypass - all you need to do is to always set the volume to a particular level when using the AVR. This is pretty much what I do and it broadens your choice of integrated amps a lot (or choice of preamps if you use a separate power amp, like me).

Can you please tell us what speakers you are running as some speakers just plain struggle at high power outputs due to dynamic compression, regardless of how powerful the amp driving them is.

Edited August 7, 2008 by kaanage

[RichardN]

Well, I can't find the thread, but I "think" it may have been Cody or Dastrix here.

Tenuous link I know, but there is a reference in post 3 in the thread below.

http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/showthread.php?t=1802

you might want to drop a PM to Cody and/or dastrix.

EDIT: OK, bit more information @ DTV http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=52697&st=20&p=743142entry743142

Yep, that's the thread. If you read on, you will see the path taken by D.G. and the fact he had to crank the Pioneer to almost full.

Edited August 7, 2008 by RichardN