PMC Speakers Owners & Discussion Thread

[RCADees]

Hi PMC lovers, I was just wondering if we should be concerned that PMC is leaving our shores, at least for now?

 

This is a bit of old news now (dated 25/10/2022) Interdyn Brands Consolidates Distribution Portfolio | StereoNET Australia | Hi-Fi news and reviews

But I couldn't help but notice that CAV in Melbourne sold their last pair of PMC Twenty5.22i a couple of weeks ago.

 

And yes, there seems to be enough stock online still out there, but I wonder if in the near future we may need to import directly or bring in our luggage?

Any thoughts on service/parts and current/future product in Australia?

 

Don't know about you but I couldn't live without my PMC speakers.

[gbb]

Does anyone find the twenty 24's power hungry in medium sized room and what amp and source do you use with your 24's?

[Jeddie]

Hi PMC friends,

I have OB1's that I run with Musical Fidelity M3si. Sounds good, but I think these speakers are capable of much, much more.

 

Just moved to new house with room 3.5m x 7m.

 

Which amps should I shortlist to get the most out of them? Prefer some real world suggestions rather me guessing.

Prefer integrated amps. But might(?) consider Pre/Power combo.  

 

Your thoughts?

[mpearce38]

2 hours ago, Jeddie said:

Hi PMC friends,

I have OB1's that I run with Musical Fidelity M3si. Sounds good, but I think these speakers are capable of much, much more.

 

Just moved to new house with room 3.5m x 7m.

 

Which amps should I shortlist to get the most out of them? Prefer some real world suggestions rather me guessing.

Prefer integrated amps. But might(?) consider Pre/Power combo.  

 

Your thoughts?

I found Hegel a good match 

[mpearce38]

8 hours ago, needlerunner said:

All lovely brands mp38. Great speakers.

Me. Considering going down that road...but with passives.

Love my PMC twenty 23s. But been researching an upgrade for next year. After several months of visual research. The ATC SCM40s seems to have struck a chord with me. They seem to be on the PMC spectrum, sound wise. 

But PMC have become too costly now (for me anyway). 

Will have to find a pair of the 40s to listen too. I believe they would match well with my Plinius Hautonga. Itching to try a 3 way. As my foray into hi-fi has strictly been 2 way speakers only (which l like). My only concern is that they might be too big for the room. But it is an open space area, and l do mainly listen from the dining room. But my main listening area is only 2.5 metres away. As l stated, the 23s sound great at that distance. But I'm also thinking that stand mounts might be a better fit???

I'm in no rush... but gotta get it right. This is endgame for me now l am retired. 

 

Yeah the 23 work well at shorter distances I found the attraction of the ATC is the mid range driver which is legendary so would want to consider the 3 way in that brand. 

[needlerunner]

11 hours ago, RCADees said:

Hi PMC lovers, I was just wondering if we should be concerned that PMC is leaving our shores, at least for now?

 

This is a bit of old news now (dated 25/10/2022) Interdyn Brands Consolidates Distribution Portfolio | StereoNET Australia | Hi-Fi news and reviews

But I couldn't help but notice that CAV in Melbourne sold their last pair of PMC Twenty5.22i a couple of weeks ago.

 

And yes, there seems to be enough stock online still out there, but I wonder if in the near future we may need to import directly or bring in our luggage?

Any thoughts on service/parts and current/future product in Australia?

 

Don't know about you but I couldn't live without my PMC speakers.

I think the writing's on the wall for PMC. Douglas hi-fi in Perth were major seller's for years. But l was told they no longer carry any stock, when l enquired several months ago.

That's when l decided to check other options.

[needlerunner]

3 hours ago, mpearce38 said:

Yeah the 23 work well at shorter distances I found the attraction of the ATC is the mid range driver which is legendary so would want to consider the 3 way in that brand. 

Yep That killer mid range. That's the appeal. Oh. And the price

 

 

[needlerunner]

11 hours ago, audio_file said:

I haven't heard the Plinius, but the ATCs are excellent speakers, the latest version far better than the PMC 23 in my opinion.

I don't think the tonal balance or transparency (and other strengths/weaknesses) are the same between the ATCs and PMCs.

They sound quite different to each other in my perception.

How large is your room?

2.5m between the speakers and listener is fine for both the PMC and ATC you mentioned, but the rest of the room is more important.

I.e. what are the dimensions (hxwxd), how far are you able to put the speaker from side walls, and how far from rear walls, and finally where is the listening position.

Thanks mate.

That's the information I'm looking for. Other people have told me that ATC SCM40s are comparable to PMC. So it's good to hear from someone who has heard both. People also say that you would have to go to the twenty-five 26s to even equal or better the 40s. But from memory, they are about $18k. Out of my range. $10k is my max budget.

 

My room size. I'll get back to you on that (tape in the shed and it's midnight. Plus on one leg after a leg op)).

But roughly the dining/living room area is 8x12 metres, if l had to hazzard a guess. Can send you a photo. Height, the ceiling is gabled. Roughly 8' at sides, peaking to 12'. 

The speakers are 14 1/2" into the room (cannot come any further in). Had them at 12" until recently. The side walls are well away, with a shelving unit one one side and a small bookcase the other; roughly 30" away.. Suspended wooden floors too. Listening position is triangular.  With me listening on the middle of the couch. Tha speakers are toed in an inch. Spent many an hour tinkering with placement. This is best I've heard them. But l still find them lacking; mainly in the mid range.

 

My last house had a designated hi-fi room which was 4x5 metres with the speakers along the short wall. Had a concrete floor/carpet. My set-up soundss better in this house. But l did have to change the speaker cables though. 

 

In a perfect world would love to trial the ATC at home with the Plinius. But don't think that's even remotely possible. The amp Chuck's out 200 wpc. So don't think power/current would be an issue. To me, the amp sounds neutral/slightly warm. Which on paper sounds like a good match.

Cheers in advance for any other insights you can chuck my way.

Ken

 

 

 

 

 

[audio_file]

10 hours ago, needlerunner said:

Thanks mate.

That's the information I'm looking for. Other people have told me that ATC SCM40s are comparable to PMC. So it's good to hear from someone who has heard both. People also say that you would have to go to the twenty-five 26s to even equal or better the 40s. But from memory, they are about $18k. Out of my range. $10k is my max budget.

 

My room size. I'll get back to you on that (tape in the shed and it's midnight. Plus on one leg after a leg op)).

But roughly the dining/living room area is 8x12 metres, if l had to hazzard a guess. Can send you a photo. Height, the ceiling is gabled. Roughly 8' at sides, peaking to 12'. 

The speakers are 14 1/2" into the room (cannot come any further in). Had them at 12" until recently. The side walls are well away, with a shelving unit one one side and a small bookcase the other; roughly 30" away.. Suspended wooden floors too. Listening position is triangular.  With me listening on the middle of the couch. Tha speakers are toed in an inch. Spent many an hour tinkering with placement. This is best I've heard them. But l still find them lacking; mainly in the mid range.

 

My last house had a designated hi-fi room which was 4x5 metres with the speakers along the short wall. Had a concrete floor/carpet. My set-up soundss better in this house. But l did have to change the speaker cables though. 

 

In a perfect world would love to trial the ATC at home with the Plinius. But don't think that's even remotely possible. The amp Chuck's out 200 wpc. So don't think power/current would be an issue. To me, the amp sounds neutral/slightly warm. Which on paper sounds like a good match.

Cheers in advance for any other insights you can chuck my way.

Ken

 

 

 

 

 

Anything is comparable to each other in the sense that you could compare them I suppose.

However to me the ATC entry level range and the PMC 20 range sound quite different.

I find both speakers to work alright when close to a back wall, but not right up against, and both also benefit from being at least 1m from side walls.

The ATCs have a revealing neutral sound, and are especially revealing and detailed in the mid range.

The ATCs also have a fast tight bass.

The PMCs go deeper in the bass, but the floor standers are not as fast as the ATCs. On the other hand the PMC stand mounts are just as fast if not faster than the ATCs.

PMCs strength is the way they throw out a huge sound stage, larger than the ATCs, and how they go deeper in the bass than you'd expect.

The ATCs strength is the way they reveal everything in the mid range.

The ATC SCM 19 is already very good at this, but the ATC SCM 40 takes it even further with their legendary mid range driver.

Both PMC and ATC sound rather bright when put too close to side walls due to the way the tweeters reflect off the sides, but you can treat this with sound panels.

When far from the sides this is not an issue at all.

 

A lot of people recommend high power for the ATCs, some do for PMC Twenty too, but I don't really see why.

I have had the ATC SCM 19 and PMC Twenty.23, twenty.22, and Twenty.24 on a Naim Nait XS2 (70W) and they sound better than to me than on a Cyrus Stereo 200 (175W) and a Musical Fidelity A3.2 CR (130W).

The ATCs sound bad to me on a 50W or less amplifier, so I wouldn't go that low, but the PMCs were still fine even then.

[needlerunner]

 

 

4 hours ago, audio_file said:

Anything is comparable to each other in the sense that you could compare them I suppose.

However to me the ATC entry level range and the PMC 20 range sound quite different.

I find both speakers to work alright when close to a back wall, but not right up against, and both also benefit from being at least 1m from side walls.

The ATCs have a revealing neutral sound, and are especially revealing and detailed in the mid range.

The ATCs also have a fast tight bass.

The PMCs go deeper in the bass, but the floor standers are not as fast as the ATCs. On the other hand the PMC stand mounts are just as fast if not faster than the ATCs.

PMCs strength is the way they throw out a huge sound stage, larger than the ATCs, and how they go deeper in the bass than you'd expect.

The ATCs strength is the way they reveal everything in the mid range.

The ATC SCM 19 is already very good at this, but the ATC SCM 40 takes it even further with their legendary mid range driver.

Both PMC and ATC sound rather bright when put too close to side walls due to the way the tweeters reflect off the sides, but you can treat this with sound panels.

When far from the sides this is not an issue at all.

 

A lot of people recommend high power for the ATCs, some do for PMC Twenty too, but I don't really see why.

I have had the ATC SCM 19 and PMC Twenty.23, twenty.22, and Twenty.24 on a Naim Nait XS2 (70W) and they sound better than to me than on a Cyrus Stereo 200 (175W) and a Musical Fidelity A3.2 CR (130W).

The ATCs sound bad to me on a 50W or less amplifier, so I wouldn't go that low, but the PMCs were still fine even then.

Cheers mate, some useful information here. Myself. Not hung up on the sounding similar scenario. Just that when l put a few feelers out several months ago, a couple of people told me if l liked PMC, l would like the ATC sound. From that l guess l assumed they were similar sounding. So, glad that's sorted.

 

I like the PMC sound, but don't love the PMC sound. But they were an improvement on my Whatmough 201. I bought the the PMC unheard because got them at a great price. Look. Not really sure what "my sound"is. But l will know it when l hear it. Won't be buyingy next pair unheard.

 

Auditioned some ProAc speakers 20 odd years ago. Can't remember the model. But l really liked that sound. But the price was too rich for me. But at time, when looking, l thought they were the best speakers l had ever heard.

 

Based on your information, l don't believe l would have any side of wall issues. Front on l should be able to bring them another 100mm into the room, as the 40s don't angle back(that is a measurement from the rear of the speaker, assuming that's where you measure from, right?). 

 

I did read reviews initially, that you could place the 40s close to the wall. That was the initial appeal, and probably why l bought the PMCs. Room limitations suck. But in my case, can't really move things around to accommodate, otherwise I'd probably plug for standmounts. 

I do like fast speakers. Great minds. Bass has never been a critical issue for me, as long as it's tight.

 

So l now know a little bit more now. Your input has reaffirmed to me that the ATCs appear to be a step in the right direction. So they are back at the top of my list. Now if only l could get to like those speaker grills....

 

My quest starts mid next year. But l do have to sell the twenty 23s to attain my goal.

 

Cheers for now. And have a great Christmas everyone in PMC land.

 

 

[s7e6e]

On 19/12/2022 at 5:10 PM, gbb said:

Does anyone find the twenty 24's power hungry in medium sized room and what amp and source do you use with your 24's?

 

I have the 25.23 if this helps in any way. They are rated at 86.5 in 8ohms. My Naim 250DR (a muscular amp that can drive 2ohm loads with ease) drives them fine but I would say it's the minimum these speakers should be paired with. Not an easy drive in my opinion.

 

The sound pressure on 50/100 volume is about the same as 35/100 when Dynaudio Special 40 are connected.

Edited December 21, 2022 by s7e6e

[s7e6e]

On 05/12/2022 at 8:38 AM, mpearce38 said:

cant wait to hear your thoughts @s7e6e

 

@mpearce38 I thought I'll share my impressions here as well, regarding the PMC Twenty5.23 speakers. Others might benefit.

 

• Super revealing, extremely clean sounding, on the cooler side of neutral. A bit bright but things should improve once they play 24/7 for a while.

 

• Not easy to drive, 8ohm / 86.5dB - I would say my 250DR (a very potent 80W amp) would be the minimum these should be paired with.

 

• They go deep (28Hz) but due to limited volume, 28Hz sounds restrained as expected. Plenty of base though, especially in a small room.

 

• Finish quality: exquisite! They would feel at home in a Naim 500 series system.

 

• They do excel in 2 areas: the stereo imaging is first class, they absolutely disappear and you don't hear anything but the orchestra playing; secondly, they are ultra fast, stopping and restarting on a dime.

 

My first thoughts: very impressive but not exactly my kind of sound signature, perhaps too hi-fi for me. I love mellower speakers (Dynaudio springs to mind) even if they lack the stereo imaging or the insane level of transparency these PMC speakers exhibits.

 

Thanks again @mpearce38, a real pleasure doing business with you mate!

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by s7e6e

[DAMO 1147]

I’m keen on some 25 26’s (not black) but they don’t seem to come up much for sale.

[audio_file]

I'm curious to know why higher power is recommended. I don't notice any improvement on the PMC Twenty.23 between a Naim Nait XS2 at 70W and many higher powered amplifiers I have tried.

Perhaps it only makes a difference at higher volume levels, and I don't notice because I never go past 85dB SPL at the listening position, usually between 75 and 80.

 

I have been interested in hearing the PMC Twenty5.22 for a while, but haven't had the opportunity or time. I suspect it might fill the weak spots of both the Twenty.22 and Twenty.23, while retaining the strong points.

 

The Dynaudios I have heard have a very different sound to both the PMCs and ATCs I have heard, and I suspect are bought by people with different tastes to those buying the other two.

The exception is the Confidence Platinum C1, which sounded more transparent and imaged better than the cheaper Dynaudio ranges in my experience.

[needlerunner]

37 minutes ago, DAMO 1147 said:

I’m keen on some 25 26’s (not black) but they don’t seem to come up much for sale.

There is a good reason for that

[needlerunner]

25 minutes ago, audio_file said:

I'm curious to know why higher power is recommended. I don't notice any improvement on the PMC Twenty.23 between a Naim Nait XS2 at 70W and many higher powered amplifiers I have tried.

Perhaps it only makes a difference at higher volume levels, and I don't notice because I never go past 85dB SPL at the listening position, usually between 75 and 80.

 

I have been interested in hearing the PMC Twenty5.22 for a while, but haven't had the opportunity or time. I suspect it might fill the weak spots of both the Twenty.22 and Twenty.23, while retaining the strong points.

 

The Dynaudios I have heard have a very different sound to both the PMCs and ATCs I have heard, and I suspect are bought by people with different tastes to those buying the other two.

The exception is the Confidence Platinum C1, which sounded more transparent and imaged better than the cheaper Dynaudio ranges in my experience.

Totally agree mate. I drove my twenty23s with a 70 Watt Arcam amp. Sounded great.

 

But wanted to do an amp/CDP/TT upgrade, before l retired. Every retailer l approached told me to go big with the amp, with regards to driving PMC speakers. 

The only difference l could hear was, that you get a bit more head room with this one. Volume wise, no difference at all.

 

Speaking of ATC. Just read that the ATC SCM 40A won applause of the year in this year's What HiFi awards. Maybe, that's the way to go...no amp.

Ken

 

[maximus]

On 19/12/2022 at 5:40 PM, gbb said:

Does anyone find the twenty 24's power hungry in medium sized room and what amp and source do you use with your 24's?

I have the Twenty5.24i floor standers. The source I use is a Lumin T2 streamer connected to a Plinius P10 power amp, I've activated "LEEDH" in the Lumin app, it is controlled by ROON's volume control.

My room size is a generous 7 x 7.5mts and have a 1.5mt and a 2.5mt opening to a hall way and a living room.

I don't think the 25.24is are a hard drive but I've had issues controlling bass in this room so opted for a power amp with good current delivery, hence the P10.

The PMC's fill the room with ease, bass is tight and room filling, just make sure you match them up with high quality electronics.

 

Frank.

 

[gbb]

I'm using an Audio Research VSI 60 and while there's nothing wrong with that, my twenty 24's are sounding more fatigued in a bigger room instead of opening them up.  They're well run in.  May add a sub later.

[maximus]

@audio_fileI have been interested in hearing the PMC Twenty5.22 for a while.

 

Had a pair prior to buying my 25.26's, a big, bold, transparent presentation incredibly musical, the new 25.22i's are even better, they have the new tweeter, so refined, highs to die for, much prefer these to my former Marten Dukes.   

[maximus]

8 minutes ago, gbb said:

I'm using an Audio Research VSI 60 and while there's nothing wrong with that, my twenty 24's are sounding more fatigued in a bigger room instead of opening them up.  They're well run in.  May add a sub later.

Interesting, a fellow SNA'ER has a pair of the twenty.24's running off a high current Sansui, he loves them to death, match made in heaven and will never part.

Before going down the subwoofer path, why not try a solid state amp, there are a number in the classifieds, or even a Sansui, if you can find one.

[mpearce38]

I've paired the PMC 25.23 with a few integrated pre/ PO combos its amazing how transparent the PMCs are revealing each amps unique character my summary below

 

Parasound HINT not the newer HINT6 - Heaps of power, great dynamics, clean highs, in then end moved it on as the mid range wasn't revealing enough for me

 

Niam Supernait 2 - big bold clean - Niam house sound not for me suited jazz, orchestral and audiophile style recordings but for rock and pop which i listen too the most sounded a little cluttered and confused, Had a big sound stage but felt like Niam over exaggerates the music to some degree which doesn't pair well with dense mixes

 

Devlet it was entry model 160 i think- Meh didn't really see what the fuss is about even with SAM. Sound was flat and lacked detailed - definitely picked up on that veiled sound

 

roksan caspian Mk2 - Great amp for rock and pop, not the most detailed or the best sound stage but it got up a boogied - very enjoyable feet taping sound - I would have kept this amp as a B amp any day of the week but needed the $ and no HT bypass

 

Roksan Blak - Caspian turned up to 11!! - the drive and boogie of the caspian with extra volume but with heaps more detail and great imagining - the onboard dac sucks, Had it paired with a chord Questest and it was a great fit. it played loud!! cleanest and loudest I've had drive the PMCs. I would recommend this hands down and would have purchased it if it had HT bypass and the remote volume control was flakey

 

Sim Audio Moon 340ix - purchased instead of the blak. Much better featured HT, Bypass, very good dac, very good phono stage. nice gain. didn't have the brute force of the Blak but played loud and clean with excellent imagining and detail, probs just a little bit too recessed in the mid range for male vocals and not as quick as some of the other amps I've had

 

Hegel H190 - Great amp, powerful detailed and controlled. It thorough the sound stage forward of the speakers and was pinpoint - This combo would not disappoint especially if you like a dryer detailed sound but it was musical too. Some will say its sterile but I would say it honest - give it a good track and it would grove. It was the last integrated I had with these speakers. I sold it to fund the PMCtwotwo 5s.

 

For me I wanted to remove as many variables as possible from the signal path so actives from here, I prefer a speaker with included amps which have been tuned by maker to perform as the designer intended but If i'd stayed with integrated I would have gone higher up the hegel chain or gone for something uber expensive like the diablo 

[s7e6e]

Spec wise, 25.22 and 25.24 are far easier to drive than 25.21 and 25.23.

Also spec wise, the Twenty series is easier to drive than the Twenty5 series.

Happy to be corrected.

 

@mpearce38 I've had a chance to compare the Roksan Blak against the Naim SuperNait3 and found the sound signatures similar to a point. Also compared it against the 250DR and found it (the Blak) less muscular and visceral but none the less a very very good amp indeed.

 

Hard to drive speakers will play music with any wimp amplifier but only after you've paired them with a high quality high current amp you realize what you've been missing out. The cliche "speakers doubling in size after upgrading the power amp" exist for a reason.

[audio_file]

10 hours ago, s7e6e said:

Spec wise, 25.22 and 25.24 are far easier to drive than 25.21 and 25.23.

Also spec wise, the Twenty series is easier to drive than the Twenty5 series.

Happy to be corrected.

 

@mpearce38 I've had a chance to compare the Roksan Blak against the Naim SuperNait3 and found the sound signatures similar to a point. Also compared it against the 250DR and found it (the Blak) less muscular and visceral but none the less a very very good amp indeed.

 

Hard to drive speakers will play music with any wimp amplifier but only after you've paired them with a high quality high current amp you realize what you've been missing out. The cliche "speakers doubling in size after upgrading the power amp" exist for a reason.

I found the same between the 20.22 and 20.24 against the 20.21 and 20.23.

The 22 and 24 went louder than the 21 and 23 on the same amplification. (which agrees with the specifications)

The 23 had the same bass weight and bass to mid range balance as the 24 to my ears, but the 24 could do it at higher volume levels where the 23 would start distorting due to the driver moving too far.

This brings me back to my question: does the higher power only make a difference if you want to play louder?

The higher sensitivity might mean that the 24 would just play louder on the same one and you still don't need a stronger amplifier.

My old PMC Twenty.23 was able to play 85dB SPL at my listening position, a level that I never exceed, but if I did want to play louder (like I used to when I was younger), I would have looked for a different speaker (and possibly a different amplifier).

[needlerunner]

On 21/12/2022 at 9:02 PM, mpearce38 said:

I've paired the PMC 25.23 with a few integrated pre/ PO combos its amazing how transparent the PMCs are revealing each amps unique character my summary below

 

Parasound HINT not the newer HINT6 - Heaps of power, great dynamics, clean highs, in then end moved it on as the mid range wasn't revealing enough for me

 

Niam Supernait 2 - big bold clean - Niam house sound not for me suited jazz, orchestral and audiophile style recordings but for rock and pop which i listen too the most sounded a little cluttered and confused, Had a big sound stage but felt like Niam over exaggerates the music to some degree which doesn't pair well with dense mixes

 

Devlet it was entry model 160 i think- Meh didn't really see what the fuss is about even with SAM. Sound was flat and lacked detailed - definitely picked up on that veiled sound

 

roksan caspian Mk2 - Great amp for rock and pop, not the most detailed or the best sound stage but it got up a boogied - very enjoyable feet taping sound - I would have kept this amp as a B amp any day of the week but needed the $ and no HT bypass

 

Roksan Blak - Caspian turned up to 11!! - the drive and boogie of the caspian with extra volume but with heaps more detail and great imagining - the onboard dac sucks, Had it paired with a chord Questest and it was a great fit. it played loud!! cleanest and loudest I've had drive the PMCs. I would recommend this hands down and would have purchased it if it had HT bypass and the remote volume control was flakey

 

Sim Audio Moon 340ix - purchased instead of the blak. Much better featured HT, Bypass, very good dac, very good phono stage. nice gain. didn't have the brute force of the Blak but played loud and clean with excellent imagining and detail, probs just a little bit too recessed in the mid range for male vocals and not as quick as some of the other amps I've had

 

Hegel H190 - Great amp, powerful detailed and controlled. It thorough the sound stage forward of the speakers and was pinpoint - This combo would not disappoint especially if you like a dryer detailed sound but it was musical too. Some will say its sterile but I would say it honest - give it a good track and it would grove. It was the last integrated I had with these speakers. I sold it to fund the PMCtwotwo 5s.

 

For me I wanted to remove as many variables as possible from the signal path so actives from here, I prefer a speaker with included amps which have been tuned by maker to perform as the designer intended but If i'd stayed with integrated I would have gone higher up the hegel chain or gone for something uber expensive like the diablo 

Very informative. Thanks.

[maximus]

@mpearce38late on this, but great right up, I definitely vouch for the character the PMC ‘s are able to portray with different types of equipment, I’ve heard the latest ‘I’ series with a very expensive Vitus class A amp, truly magical, this is why I’ve owned many pairs over the years, I’m not aware of many speakers with this type of capability at the price, including ATC and Proac.