e83cc Posted Friday at 09:20 AM Posted Friday at 09:20 AM 2 minutes ago, marcusD said: Static air locked bearings can take awhile to drop, I find spinning them speeds up the process Final Audio Research VTT1 custom built to order by Takai Labs. Yes I have to constantly spin the platter for hours. My process is to watch TV for several hours whilst spinning the platter manually. It's a painful process. The Micros are a toy - I've owned one. The non air bearing Micros use a standard T for topple bearing, albeit with very fine tolerances. I never trialled alternate oils in the Micro as they have a "sealed" bearing, supposedly manufactured for them by a jet engine manufacturing company - individually matched spindles/housings and a specific oil designed for the very high tolerances. The Micro bearings have a high "drag" built in. I've also owned the Verdier - the inverted bearing is looser than a worn out 50's Garrard - it requires constant topping up as it leaks - it's in the manual. The Verdier relies heavily on the magnetic repulsion to take either all ( no ball ) or the bulk ( with ball ) of the load of the heavy platter.
e83cc Posted Friday at 09:31 AM Posted Friday at 09:31 AM 15 minutes ago, marcusD said: “Settle” is subjective obviously, an ultra tight tolerance sleeve could cause the platter to float above its seating position for a fair while and not offer any rock in the platter. I’ve machined some bearings with some serious tolerances and they have all touched down well before 6 hours, I’m presuming the shaft is a nitrided tool steel and the sleeve is highly polished leaded bronze, you could get an infinitely small gap with those materials with very good heat dissipation, a bearing machined as finely as that could theoretically require a true 0 weight oil to establish a film Fyi 0 weight is too light, 5 works fine. It's interesting despite the inverted bearing and heavy platter mass whenever I have removed the platter ( I've owned the TT for 40 years ) there's always been oil on top of the ball, and its always been as clear as water, never ceases to amaze me. You may be on the money materials wise - the TT makes extensive use of exotic materials - superplastic zinc alloy, bronze alloys and chromed copper alloys. Its designed to drain energy to ground ( from the record/stylus interface ). The bearing/platter is essentially a self centering uni pivot with the platter/subplatter centre of mass well below the bearing point. Its not a conventional thrust pad.
marcusD Posted Friday at 09:36 AM Posted Friday at 09:36 AM 10 minutes ago, e83cc said: Final Audio Research VTT1 custom built to order by Takai Labs. Yes I have to constantly spin the platter for hours. My process is to watch TV for several hours whilst spinning the platter manually. It's a painful process. The Micros are a toy - I've owned one. The non air bearing Micros use a standard T for topple bearing, albeit with very fine tolerances. I never trialled alternate oils in the Micro as they have a "sealed" bearing, supposedly manufactured for them by a jet engine manufacturing company - individually matched spindles/housings and a specific oil designed for the very high tolerances. The Micro bearings have a high "drag" built in. I've also owned the Verdier - the inverted bearing is looser than a worn out 50's Garrard - it requires constant topping up as it leaks - it's in the manual. The Verdier relies heavily on the magnetic repulsion to take either all ( no ball ) or the bulk ( with ball ) of the load of the heavy platter. The leaded bronze sleeve ( or maybe the sleeve is machined in the platter) provides self lubrication against a harder polished spindle. A bearing that well machined would run 5 weight at the heaviest in high ambient temperatures, in typical Auckland weather I would run a fully synthetic iso22 ( around 3 weight) with a non reactive ( to leaded bronze ) modifier package 1
mr_gray Posted Friday at 09:40 AM Posted Friday at 09:40 AM i was going to guess the final audio research brand as there was something i was reading the other day on audigon or wbf re: a bearing that took 6 hours to settle. perhaps it was you? can you tell me how the FAR table compares to the platine? i only just got the la platine so definitely not looking to change or anything but it would be incurious of me not to ask how tolerances like that convert into performance. btw my platine has lost alot of magnetic force it seems and sits v heavily on the ball i utilise. having said that i think it sounds great.
marcusD Posted Friday at 09:48 AM Posted Friday at 09:48 AM 4 minutes ago, mr_gray said: i was going to guess the final audio research brand as there was something i was reading the other day on audigon or wbf re: a bearing that took 6 hours to settle. perhaps it was you? can you tell me how the FAR table compares to the platine? i only just got the la platine so definitely not looking to change or anything but it would be incurious of me not to ask how tolerances like that convert into performance. btw my platine has lost alot of magnetic force it seems and sits v heavily on the ball i utilise. having said that i think it sounds great. Download the shaknspin app to your phone and Bluetooth pair them, you can get a timed graph of vibration which directly correlates to your bearing performance, and will clearly show any contact or slop and its frequency and duration 1
e83cc Posted Friday at 09:58 AM Posted Friday at 09:58 AM 4 minutes ago, mr_gray said: i was going to guess the final audio research brand as there was something i was reading the other day on audigon or wbf re: a bearing that took 6 hours to settle. perhaps it was you? can you tell me how the FAR table compares to the platine? i only just got the la platine so definitely not looking to change or anything but it would be incurious of me not to ask how tolerances like that convert into performance. btw my platine has lost alot of magnetic force it seems and sits v heavily on the ball i utilise. having said that i think it sounds great. Yes that's me. There is no comparison - I bought the Platine for a second TT - I liked the concept of the semi levitated platter, the ability to take multiple arms and play 78's. The reality is it was so far behind the Final, even after a couple of years of trying to wring more performance out of it, I never used it. I use a rebuilt 301 for the B system and I prefer it to the Verdier by some margin - but its pretty tricked out. That's not to say the Verdier is bad, it bettered an SME 20 in the same system by some margin. The lack of magnetic force is a real worry - I never had that issue. When I used a ball on the Verdier I used a dial gauge to measure the height of the platter. You lower the bearing with the screw underneath, Insert the ball, then raise the bearing until the ball engages ( platter lifts ) and the dial gauge measures 1000/inch above the original height. Using that method the ball is only taking a minuscule load. This way the bearing effective sees a very light load, because the magnets are still taking the bulk of the load. I used the supplied ball from Verdier - I can't remember the size - I don't think I ever measured it. Hope that makes sense to you.
mr_gray Posted Friday at 10:08 AM Posted Friday at 10:08 AM not that it makes a world of difference perhaps but was your platine the mdf/hdf base or the granito? i have a pretty optimised garrard 401 and i find the platine significantly better in some ways than that. higher resolution, lower noise etc. of course maybe that just means by 401 isn't as good as i thought it was. or i suppose it could be we have slightly different preferences. if an idler does PRAT well what is the strength of the FAR or is it just quite superior all around? re my platine i have ordered new magnets and hope to improve the situation. right now i feel i can hear too much bearing. it is a finicky thing to use sometimes. i still haven't listened to a 45 as every time i flip the switch on motor box i absolutely fail to get close to speed. i presume this relates to the amount of friction i'm running with my weak as piss magnets.
e83cc Posted Friday at 10:19 AM Posted Friday at 10:19 AM 10 minutes ago, mr_gray said: not that it makes a world of difference perhaps but was your platine the mdf/hdf base or the granito? i have a pretty optimised garrard 401 and i find the platine significantly better in some ways than that. higher resolution, lower noise etc. of course maybe that just means by 401 isn't as good as i thought it was. or i suppose it could be we have slightly different preferences. if an idler does PRAT well what is the strength of the FAR or is it just quite superior all around? re my platine i have ordered new magnets and hope to improve the situation. right now i feel i can hear too much bearing. it is a finicky thing to use sometimes. i still haven't listened to a 45 as every time i flip the switch on motor box i absolutely fail to get close to speed. i presume this relates to the amount of friction i'm running with my weak as piss magnets. Does your platter float freely with the ball removed ?
mr_gray Posted Friday at 10:21 AM Posted Friday at 10:21 AM i haven't ever removed the ball but no way. i mean when i changed the 12 mm ball to a 10 mm the platter was sitting on the base. no gap. i have a SDP addition to the platter which is an extra 2 kgs but yeah - seems super odd to me. the magnets were new from Eric Verdier via A23 in 2017.
e83cc Posted Friday at 10:39 AM Posted Friday at 10:39 AM This is very odd - I used 2kg record weight plus 2kg patter mat no problems. It does sound like you have loss of magnetic strength. My Verdier was recent production ( MDF base ) - it's been a while I'm guessing purchased new about 2017/8 ish. As far as I know it's still running fine.
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