davewantsmoore Posted February 20, 2016 Posted February 20, 2016 Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the assumption behind the question is that a low efficiency speaker has 'lost' something, namely the energy that is no longer being used to make music but now goes into heat, and that this loss means there is a loss of resolution. I'm not sure that it is a reasonable assumption. You are correct .... although it is hard to tell if anyone is making that specific assumption here. Lower sensitivity can lead to more power and/or excursion being required. These two things can lead to more distortion.... but generalisations are very very difficult beyond that. It is extremely easy to mix up cause and effect.
davewantsmoore Posted February 20, 2016 Posted February 20, 2016 out by +\-20% and it really doesn't matter It depends exactly what.... but yes, many things that are easy to measure are not particularly audible. It is really for THAT reason that the directivity pattern of a speaker is place to focus on to improve performance. Speakers can be out in this regard by hundreds or even a thousand % 1
thermonicavenger Posted February 20, 2016 Posted February 20, 2016 Hey Dave. They I would guess be loud & CLEAR. The cherry on the cake for me is when they do complex music like mass choral or Zappa and you can focus on what you want and there is no strain in following the focus point of your attention be it a bass riff, drums, individual vocals or whatever. Then when you focus out the whole sounds like a live performance. Taken as a given that the source & room acoustics are OK. The only path to higher resolution audio I see is active horns.
davewantsmoore Posted February 20, 2016 Posted February 20, 2016 alluding to the fact that the lack of efficiency IS the biggest form of distortion In a sense yes... but not so much at home. The biggest distortion by FAR is linear distortion. This can be affected by not enough sensitivity, but only when it is extreme. Really only comes into play at bass, or at SPL much higher than home (PWK was often designing speakers for louder than home) Non-linear distortion.... goes up when excursion goes up. Modern driver designs have improved this a lot ... and at home SPL and multiway designs, it isn't a big issue, until we get to the bass.
mwhouston Posted February 20, 2016 Author Posted February 20, 2016 (edited) Brown. I have had the brass name plates engraved for these speakers; retro-thermionic - VoXGrandious. I may get some new names plates; "VoXCadbdury". Thank God they at least sound good. Edited February 20, 2016 by mwhouston 1
davewantsmoore Posted February 20, 2016 Posted February 20, 2016 BTW Dave what were those 2 drivers? Which 2 drivers? (sorry - quote me to jog my memory?)
Newman Posted February 20, 2016 Posted February 20, 2016 Cheers. Good point Newman that makes sense to me. I guess I didn't explain that I wasn't talking about comparing speakers to other speakers. But comparing the real event with the reproduced one. Like when you venture to the other side of the glass in a recording studio. Oh, you don't want to venture to the other side of the glass in a recording studio... 1
davewantsmoore Posted February 20, 2016 Posted February 20, 2016 Like when you venture to the other side of the glass in a recording studio. Of course, we shouldn't forget they're not supposed to sound the same It would be nice (sometimes) if they could..... but recording techniques are limited and flawed ..... and trying to make a speaker so it sounds like what you hear on the other side, is not a smart path to high performance (ie. good sound)
thermonicavenger Posted February 20, 2016 Posted February 20, 2016 Agreed as soon as a signal is processed through a mic no matter how good its irrevocably altered and the rest of the process is downhill from there. A good mixer simply minimizes the harm. The two speakers were in your 12.39pm reply as the best examples of what a speaker should achieve 88dB the 110 dB efficient and prior in the same reply you were giving me the math formula for speaker losses. Sorry this is from my phone and I can't paste the quote.
Guest Posted February 20, 2016 Posted February 20, 2016 (edited) http://www.rcf.it/en_US/products/precision-transducers/coaxial-transducers/cx12n351 These are 98dB efficient, anyone know anything about this series of coaxial ? Edited February 20, 2016 by Guest
mwhouston Posted February 20, 2016 Author Posted February 20, 2016 http://www.rcf.it/en_US/products/precision-transducers/coaxial-transducers/cx12n351 These are 98dB efficient, anyone know anything about this series of coaxial ? Looks like, a Beyma! Would not be surprised if it is at least made by Beyma. 1
Guest Posted February 20, 2016 Posted February 20, 2016 @@mwhouston, looks to me to be reasonable sort of driver for a floor stander. Constant directivity, single point.
zog Posted February 20, 2016 Posted February 20, 2016 Mate, very nice entry and you combined great looks with, I'm sure, excellent performance. To do this requires real skill and it is often not that hard. Nice cabinet, nice colour and love the low sheen finish. I have a 2.5W 6V6 SE UL tube amp witch would drive throse horns with ease and add just a little warmth. PM if interested. Thanks for the excellent post. No Worries & thanks. Some flaws in my "learning as I go" paint job are apparent in brighter light but it looks fine most of the time :-) Still some fine tuning of the DSP crossover to go, but I haven't been in any hurry as it sounds nice at the moment. I did try an excellent 5W SET amp in the HF once, and the sound was very very nice, but it was a high maintenance unit in terms of turning it off and on compared to how I have all the solid state gear. 1
mwhouston Posted February 20, 2016 Author Posted February 20, 2016 No Worries & thanks. Some flaws in my "learning as I go" paint job are apparent in brighter light but it looks fine most of the time :-) Still some fine tuning of the DSP crossover to go, but I haven't been in any hurry as it sounds nice at the moment. I did try an excellent 5W SET amp in the HF once, and the sound was very very nice, but it was a high maintenance unit in terms of turning it off and on compared to how I have all the solid state gear. I would like to hear just how it sounds. 1
mwhouston Posted February 20, 2016 Author Posted February 20, 2016 http://www.usspeaker.com/beyma%2015CXA400nd-1.htm
davewantsmoore Posted February 20, 2016 Posted February 20, 2016 Brown. Doesn't look brown in the pics. I wouldn't think I'd be a fan of brown.... but the pics look good 1
mwhouston Posted February 20, 2016 Author Posted February 20, 2016 Doesn't look brown in the pics. I wouldn't think I'd be a fan of brown.... but the pics look good My wife picked the colour and while I was on the end of the roller I'm thinking "she ain't gunna like this" and she didn't. 2
davewantsmoore Posted February 20, 2016 Posted February 20, 2016 Agreed as soon as a signal is processed through a mic no matter how good its irrevocably altered and the rest of the process is downhill from there. A good mixer simply minimizes the harm. The two speakers were in your 12.39pm reply as the best examples of what a speaker should achieve 88dB the 110 dB efficient and prior in the same reply you were giving me the math formula for speaker losses. Sorry this is from my phone and I can't paste the quote. Ah... right ok, gotcha. (110) 3-way horns using .... 15" driver in 50hz (0.5pi) horn ... and a PSE-144 .... this is what the dirty prototype looked like (88) 4-way dipole using Scanspeak discovery drivers. 2x10" / 1x 8" / 1x 4" / 2x 0.75" pic They have -6dB points at 50 and 30 respectively, but both really need the subwoofers on if you want to party. 2
davewantsmoore Posted February 20, 2016 Posted February 20, 2016 examples of what a speaker should achieve 88dB the 110 dB efficient The speakers I spend most of my time tinkering with (very compact monitors and floorstanders) .... typically have BOTH high and low (or at least 'regular') combined. The have a small-ish midwoofer of between 5 and 10" .... so between 88 and 92 dB.w ..... and a dome tweeter in a horn/waveguide (so ~ 100dB/w). Heh.
thermonicavenger Posted February 20, 2016 Posted February 20, 2016 (edited) Cheers Dave. The dipole looks very similar to the linkwitz version. Dig the corner loaded bass horn @ mwhouston. I can have a tendancy to rub people the wrong way. Even when agreeing with them. If that happened it was non intentional. What can I say its a gift that seems to just keep on giving. Cheers Edited February 21, 2016 by thermonicavenger 1
mwhouston Posted February 21, 2016 Author Posted February 21, 2016 (edited) Retro-thermionic "VoXGrandious" re-assembled, painted and now driven by my new repaired 300B. Different bass response with nodes at 80, 63 and a slight fall at 50 to come back at 40 and now with better output at 31hz. My DIY 300B (The Silver Dragon) produces 8W but excellent bass response with 30W Hammond OPTs. Very articulated bass. The top end goes to 52Khz. Edited February 21, 2016 by mwhouston 2
davewantsmoore Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 The dipole looks very similar to the linkwitz version. They look a little like the Linkwitz Orions.... however there was a bun fight going on as to who copied who, with the new Linkwitz version , and these ones. Sure, it doesn't look a whole lot like the Orion successor (the LX521) .... but the looks aside the concept is the same. ie. keeping the baffle narrow vs wavelength, and using an extra midrange driver (in between the 8" and 1" drivers used previously in the Orion) ..... are common to both. The baffle shape, and the use of the 4" driver, are done solely to improve the off-axis (directivity). Although perhaps, our Andi (Gainphile) could say that HE was first 'to market' with the idea.... he probably just didn't keep his work a secret like the others did (it was being discussed in various forums) .... my own prototypes of the idea (looking a little like a karri acoustics dipole, with as little baffle as possible) were only cardboard. My real attempt used close to the Nao Note plans, so I had something to compare measurement with (doing everything from scratch is hard work).
thermonicavenger Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 Cheers Dave Really interesting stuff for me. Because it means that people quite literally @ opposite ends of the world have come to virtually the same conclusions on the way forward regarding loudspeaker home audio fidelity. Yes to all I know there are 2 photos of my mad cave. I posted one the right way up. The other upside down. I Then randomised 100 attemts right way up & upside down to get it to load corectly all to no avail. If somebody could explain this I would greatly appreciate it as its not the first time. Sorry about going on about this but I find this a really bizarre WTF moment. Cheers Mark
davewantsmoore Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 Cheers Dave Really interesting stuff for me. Because it means that people quite literally @ opposite ends of the world have come to virtually the same conclusions Came up with the same method to make the response of a dipole speaker like the Orion, more even. As far as en even axial response being a primary goal. This has been know about for yonks..... but it's hard to achieve, and so speaker manufacturers don't typically want to make a big deal out of it (cos it will show their products aren't perfect) ..... and would much prefer to sell you on type of metal the binding posts are made from .... or the unobtainium cone material .... or giving a fancy proprietary sounding name to something. Marketing 101.
Guest Posted February 21, 2016 Posted February 21, 2016 (edited) My wife picked the colour and while I was on the end of the roller I'm thinking "she ain't gunna like this" and she didn't. They don't look too bad may grow on you after a few weeks I bet they sound great. Edited February 21, 2016 by Guest
Recommended Posts