Happy Posted July 21, 2016 Posted July 21, 2016 @@mwhouston Personally would like to play with the 15" coaxials, a miniDSP HD 2x4, 2x300B amps, a PC, mic,REW and see what the dynamics and musicality come to then . Would be shock and awe IMHO, hang the complexity. you could try some RCA LC-1B 2
Guest Posted July 21, 2016 Posted July 21, 2016 Gee, is that a coax ? what is it's diameter ? Interesting looking, never seen before you could try some RCA LC-1B
Happy Posted July 21, 2016 Posted July 21, 2016 Gee, is that a coax ? what is it's diameter ? Interesting looking, never seen before 15" drivers. They're vintage/antique & legendary.
Happy Posted July 21, 2016 Posted July 21, 2016 http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649239370-rca-lc1b-mi11411b-vintage-hifi-duocone-full-range-15-coaxial-speakers-lc1-possibly-the-finest-coaxia/
Guest Posted July 21, 2016 Posted July 21, 2016 http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649239370-rca-lc1b-mi11411b-vintage-hifi-duocone-full-range-15-coaxial-speakers-lc1-possibly-the-finest-coaxia/ GAWD rare as rocking hoarse poo and a bit out of my league. Would stick with the Beyma, maybe this Beyma 15CXA400Nd 400 watter
Happy Posted July 21, 2016 Posted July 21, 2016 GAWD rare as rocking hoarse poo and a bit out of my league. Would stick with the Beyma, maybe this Beyma 15CXA400Nd 400 watter sell your subs....
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted July 21, 2016 Posted July 21, 2016 It was more about chasing dynamics. Then use ESLs. Nothing is as dynamic. ESLs lack thermal compression, which afflicts moving coil drivers.
Guest Posted July 21, 2016 Posted July 21, 2016 Then use ESLs. Nothing is as dynamic. ESLs lack thermal compression, which afflicts moving coil drivers. Wrong thread, not efficient enough to rate here But the ESL is a stunner for mid range dynamics, for sure.
Happy Posted July 21, 2016 Posted July 21, 2016 Then use ESLs. Nothing is as dynamic. ESLs lack thermal compression, which afflicts moving coil drivers. ESLs have dynamics? I know they're not bad but don't they lack bass?
mwhouston Posted July 21, 2016 Author Posted July 21, 2016 you could try some RCA LC-1B A guy ten mins from here has a pair. Never been out of the box they came in. I should suggest to him I box them up. Have Specs for them?
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted July 21, 2016 Posted July 21, 2016 ESLs have dynamics? I know they're not bad but don't they lack bass? ESLs are, arguably, the most dynamic of all speakers. They don't, inherently, lack bass, but they certainly present serious challenges, if 20Hz ~ 20kHz is is required, due the cancellation effects of panels. 1
Happy Posted July 21, 2016 Posted July 21, 2016 A guy ten mins from here has a pair. Never been out of the box they came in. I should suggest to him I box them up. Have Specs for them? Not really....but the specs should be found if one Googles hard I'd think. With drivers like these, specs are kinda meaningless
Newman Posted July 21, 2016 Posted July 21, 2016 'ESL has dynamics' is a joke. Maybe with headphones, or a tweeter. But for a home speaker, 'dynamics' includes attaining peak SPL..... 2
Newman Posted July 21, 2016 Posted July 21, 2016 A guy ten mins from here has a pair. Never been out of the box they came in. I should suggest to him I box them up. ...and of course you will be wearing a backpack, which arrives with a couple of bricks in it..... 1
Happy Posted July 21, 2016 Posted July 21, 2016 'ESL has dynamics' is a joke. Maybe with headphones, or a tweeter. But for a home speaker, 'dynamics' includes attaining peak SPL..... yeah that was my understanding too. think even the newer Quad ESLs have this issue.
davewantsmoore Posted July 21, 2016 Posted July 21, 2016 @@mwhouston Personally would like to play with the 15" coaxials, a miniDSP HD 2x4, 2x300B amps, a PC, mic,REW and see what the dynamics and musicality come to then . Would be shock and awe IMHO, hang the complexity. I did this with a 12 inch coaxial .... with the intention of using it as a centre speaker. The response of the individual drivers were ragged enough, that redesigning the passive crossover was able to make some big improvements.
davewantsmoore Posted July 21, 2016 Posted July 21, 2016 Then use ESLs. Nothing is as dynamic. ESLs lack thermal compression, which afflicts moving coil drivers. "Nothing is as dynamic" deserves to be challenged, especially in this thread. The measures of "dynamics" (stored energy, noisefloor, etc.) are approximately the same as a very high efficiency cone driver (say very high 90s). The main reason ESLs sound the way they do (a drastic increase in clarity) is the drastic increase in directivity index (of a dipole source) .... rather than to do with difference in "efficiency" (or similar) .... even though that is what people usually preach (and is what seems plausible). 1
davewantsmoore Posted July 21, 2016 Posted July 21, 2016 ESLs are, arguably, the most dynamic of all speakers. They don't, inherently, lack bass, but they certainly present serious challenges, if 20Hz ~ 20kHz is is required, due the cancellation effects of panels. Added high-pass response below the dipole peak certainly doesn't help a dipole ..... but the main reason why an ESL finds it difficult to reproduce low frequencies, is because it is limited in excursion capability. Becuase they inherently (typically!?) lack large excursion capability .... then I would think it's fair to say they "inherently lack bass" ..... ie. the ability to produce enough SPL at LF. "Enough" being completely subjective of course. If only 50dB is required, then we could probably use a typical electrostatic speaker as a subwoofer ESLs have dynamics? To understand this we have to look at what harms the ability to correctly reproduce the dynamics which are in the input signal. Stored energy (and resonances), in the speaker. Energy which is stored in the speaker, and released later (instead of now) .... increases the "noisefloor", which obscures detail, and reduces the difference between the loudest and softest. Non-linear distortion. ie. new components added to the signal, which weren't supposed to be there (added harmonics and intermodulation products). Again, this raises the noisefloor. "Compression".... ie. something which causes the driver to "undershoot" the amplitude called for by the input signal. This reduces the distance between the signal and noise .... and at it's worst affects the loudest sounds more than the quieter sounds (so dynamically clips off the loud bits) ESL speakers often do better on all these things than the "average" cone driver. However, the biggest reason for dynamics or "clarity" (not mentioned above) is "stored energy" in the room.... and by this, I mean how much energy travels straight from the speaker to the listener .... vs how much energy goes into the room, and indirectly reaches the listener some time later. A dipole source aims more energy directly at the listener. 1
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted July 21, 2016 Posted July 21, 2016 Nicely put, Dave, but I would add the issue of thermal compression (or lack of) is another artefact to be considered.
Guest Doppler Effect Posted July 21, 2016 Posted July 21, 2016 (edited) In my testing I've found thermal compression to be non-significant for typical home HiFi applications (cf PA applications, in which it is significant). I'm away at the moment and don't have access to my measurements, but sure enough with the internet being the internet found this --> http://www.stereophile.com/reference/1106hot/index.html#mAGxy2kIFUjlISGZ.97, which aligns with my measurements. Note that I'm excluding subwoofers here, which I assume to be valid in this context considering we are discussing comparatively with ESLs. I'm also excluding cheap rubbish. Edited July 21, 2016 by Doppler Effect
davewantsmoore Posted July 21, 2016 Posted July 21, 2016 (edited) Nicely put, Dave, but I would add the issue of thermal compression (or lack of) is another artefact to be considered. In my testing I've found thermal compression to be non-significant for typical home HiFi applications (cf PA applications, in which it is significant). Yep. It's definitely a consideration for a dynamic driver ..... cf ESL where it is not an issue. It's actually a very good point for this thread, as it is one of the reasons why we don't want to "run out of efficiency" in a dynamic driver.... as we end up with heat. Reasonable drivers and speaker designs for domestic hifi can easily avoid the issue completely. Except for subwoofers where it is unlikely we ever have "enough" efficiency. Edited July 21, 2016 by davewantsmoore
mwhouston Posted July 21, 2016 Author Posted July 21, 2016 ...and of course you will be wearing a backpack, which arrives with a couple of bricks in it..... You have me thinking.
mwhouston Posted July 24, 2016 Author Posted July 24, 2016 I have back two Tripath Class D amps which use the hifimediy T4 modules - 180W. I Melbourne Audio Club member heard one in his system and bought it. A week later he ordered another for his surround sound system. A week or so back he drop them in to have attenuators installed so he can better balance preamp settings and use one direct from source. These days I'm using 24 step medium to high end step attenuators, they have gold contacts and only ever two resistors in cct. at any one time. Very solid looking and extremely well made. Not cheap but good value for the money. After upgardimg one amp I decided to slip it into my system with the Beymas to check what I had done works ok. I have just replaced my 250W IRS Class D with my 300B. The amp does sound good with the Beymas but as with the other 250W Class D I'm not wondering if my system sounds better with the big valve 300B providing the loudness. Also I found when I go fulling tubes all the way; tube phono preamp, tube preamp and tube power amp, the whole system really comes to life and delivers big time. No doubt the big Beymas sound the best when it's glass and fire all the way.
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