High efficiency speakers appreciation and discussions

[Guest]

I have back two Tripath Class D amps which use the hifimediy T4 modules - 180W. I Melbourne Audio Club member heard one in his system and bought it. A week later he ordered another for his surround sound system.

A week or so back he drop them in to have attenuators installed so he can better balance preamp settings and use one direct from source. These days I'm using 24 step medium to high end step attenuators, they have gold contacts and only ever two resistors in cct. at any one time. Very solid looking and extremely well made. Not cheap but good value for the money.

After upgardimg one amp I decided to slip it into my system with the Beymas to check what I had done works ok. I have just replaced my 250W IRS Class D with my 300B. The amp does sound good with the Beymas but as with the other 250W Class D I'm not wondering if my system sounds better with the big valve 300B providing the loudness. Also I found when I go fulling tubes all the way; tube phono preamp, tube preamp and tube power amp, the whole system really comes to life and delivers big time. No doubt the big Beymas sound the best when it's glass and fire all the way.

May be time to try an ultra modern A/B single ended MOS FET amp then rather than comparing a D class, with the Valves.

In a nice way 

Edited July 24, 2016 by Guest

[mwhouston]

May be time to try an ultra modern A/B single ended MOS FET amp then rather than comparing a D class, with the Valves.

In a nice way

I generally swim up stream. And against the current. Edited July 24, 2016 by mwhouston

[Guest]

I generally swim up stream. And against the current.

All the differing amps will show their character on the big coaxials, not surprised then to hear the valves (high value and cost) sounds better than the tripath D class.

All I am alluding to is the fact that there may be a better sounding amp, it may not be Valve or D, may be something else, even then there is personal preference.

 

What experience I have picked up with high effiency speakers is though, the speaker seems to bring out into the light the good and bad attributes of every amplifier, more so than those that provide a quarter of the SPL for the same power rating. Picking an amplifier that suits the persona of the speaker and personal preferences becomes much more difficult.

M

Cheers

[mwhouston]

All the differing amps will show their character on the big coaxials, not surprised then to hear the valves (high value and cost) sounds better than the tripath D class.

All I am alluding to is the fact that there may be a better sounding amp, it may not be Valve or D, may be something else, even then there is personal preference.

 

What experience I have picked up with high effiency speakers is though, the speaker seems to bring out into the light the good and bad attributes of every amplifier, more so than those that provide a quarter of the SPL for the same power rating. Picking an amplifier that suits the persona of the speaker and personal preferences becomes much more difficult.

M

Cheers

Agree. There appears to be a greater transparency, not just for the music but for the gear character also. Characters of all components appears to shine through. We (you and I) have spoke about hearing the diference in the change of a phono preamp. I can swap out three (one very different) very good sound MC preamps and thier character shows through.

Don't think I have mentioned it yet but the bass I find very natural and there is something about the bass coming from the same spot as the rest of the music rather than the bass comming from a distant and other driver.

[mwhouston]

I have some low wattage SS amps to build in the near future. I have all the parts. Can't wait to hear how they will sound on the big Beymas.

[baMarek]

I have back two Tripath Class D amps which use the hifimediy T4 modules - 180W. I Melbourne Audio Club member heard one in his system and bought it. A week later he ordered another for his surround sound system.

A week or so back he drop them in to have attenuators installed so he can better balance preamp settings and use one direct from source. These days I'm using 24 step medium to high end step attenuators, they have gold contacts and only ever two resistors in cct. at any one time. Very solid looking and extremely well made. Not cheap but good value for the money.

After upgardimg one amp I decided to slip it into my system with the Beymas to check what I had done works ok. I have just replaced my 250W IRS Class D with my 300B. The amp does sound good with the Beymas but as with the other 250W Class D I'm not wondering if my system sounds better with the big valve 300B providing the loudness. Also I found when I go fulling tubes all the way; tube phono preamp, tube preamp and tube power amp, the whole system really comes to life and delivers big time. No doubt the big Beymas sound the best when it's glass and fire all the way.

 

This is not really surprising as T4 with Mcaps and especially with original coils sounds very decent but definitely not even 80% of what it can deliver. IRS sound worse than Tripath to my ears. For the volume control try boards based on PGA2310.

 

Maybe you need to experiment with TK2020 chip with some good elements...I have never heard deeper bass from any class D amp. Funnily it is only 8W.

[mwhouston]

After the two next Class Ds (180W new T4 and 1500W Sure) I probably won't build more unless it's a commission job.

Edited July 25, 2016 by mwhouston

[lowpoke]

Sorry, I'm a little late to the party.

This is my four way active horn system. (OK, three way horns and bass reflex subs.)

Highs, mids and bass are tube amplified, subs solid state. Time aligned and sounding amazing. What I'd call very high efficiency.

Edited August 7, 2016 by lowpoke

[Guest]

Sorry, I'm a little late to the party.

This is my four way active horn system. (OK, three way horns and bass reflex subs.)

Highs, mids and bass are tube amplified, subs solid state. Time aligned and sounding GREAT. What I'd call very high efficiency.

WOW, now that is a nice set up, envious. 

[mwhouston]

Sorry, I'm a little late to the party.

This is my four way active horn system. (OK, three way horns and bass reflex subs.)

Highs, mids and bass are tube amplified, subs solid state. Time aligned and sounding GREAT. What I'd call very high efficiency.

Impressive!

[davewantsmoore]

active horn system

 

Looks great!  

[mwhouston]

In past posts I have said all you need is high efficiency speakers to play anything from low power amps to high power. Then I had a bit of a turn around and suggested a high power amp was the way to go. With lots of horse power under the bonnet you could drive low efficiency low impedance difficult speakers or high efficiency boxes. Yes I was comfortable to swing both ways.

After a few weeks with my 250W Class D driving my high efficiency 15" Beymas I swung back to my DIY 8W SE DHT 300B. With the Pi3B music server, XMOS DAC, two stage DIY tube preamp, 300B and Beymas, I feel I have now the best system I have ever had.

I love pulling out my low power DIY SE amps (of which currently I have a few) and enjoying these simple audio devices. What they do for voice and music, to me, nothing else comes near. Probably the best of these is my 300mW UX-171A - 1920 tubed "power" amp (Intermezzo) with its transformer input stage.

It's quite obvious without very high efficiency speakers the above uP amp would never have been heard. And of course at anytime I can swap in the 250W Ds. So for now I'm advocating high efficiency speakers over high powered amps. They just allow you to experience and enjoy such a huge range of amping gear.

Edited July 29, 2016 by mwhouston

[mwhouston]

I have made this comment before on other forums with relation to what you hear from your system. Odd statement? What I'm getting at is your speakers really define your overall sound. Swapping out preamps, power amps etc will change the overall sound slightly at best. You may get a little more bass or a more detailed mid-range but the speakers are really defining what you hear.

I realised this when I had a few pairs of 8" Fostex full range speakers. No matter how many different amps and sources I tried with them in the end there was much the same sound. The Fostex 8" full range sound.

And now the 15" Beyma speaker sound. I have played 3 very different rube amps and two different high power class D amps and I always get much the same sound. Yes there are variations on the theme but 90% of the overall sound is the speakers. It is their character I am hearing and it cannot be hidden or changed.

What I have found agrees strongly with what I have read in articles over the years. Choose your speakers for the sound you want.

[Mushroom01]

Random pics & specs of full range, HE speakers, from a well known Australian Company.

 

 

Cabinet: 1220h x 300w x 415d transmission line cabinet
Power Handling: 400 wrms
Nominal Impedance: 4 ohms
Frequency Response: 26 -- 50,000 Hertz +/-2dB with gradual roll-off giving usable response to low 20's
Sensitivity: 96 dB 1w/1m
Drivers: 2 x 260 mm super efficient double magnet professional woofers and superb professional cinema ribbon midrange/tweeter capable of output below 1500 Hz.
Description: This is a very unique, sensitive and very powerful high end speaker. The large professional cinema ribbon midrange/tweeter can extend the superb accuracy and detail of a ribbon down far enough to dispense with a separate midrange driver all together. Very efficient, powerful, clean, accurate and absolutely unique, these large ribbon Timberwolves have an amazingly live sound stage. These are suitable for all uses, whether for a low powered valve amplifiers and phono players or very large dedicated Home Theatre audio rooms, or even for ultra high quality public address/sound reinforcement systems in small auditoriums.

 

 

 

Cabinet: 1120h x 300w x 415d transmission line 100 litres
Power Handling: 120 wrms
Nominal Impedance: 8 ohms
Frequency Response: 26 -- 40,000 Hertz +/-2dB 
Sensitivity: 96dB 1w/1m
Drivers: 10 inch professional super efficient long throw woofer with die-cast basket and double magnet; 135 mm efficient ultra smooth and detailed midrange; efficient horn loaded ribbon tweeter
Description: At last, a full range large audiophile quality super efficient speaker for low powered valve amplifiers. This speaker will produce a similar output at 10 watts as many other speakers would at 80 watts, and do that with no restrictions in bass extension, impact, transience, voicing, air, crispness, sound-stage or reality. 

[Guest]

I have made this comment before on other forums with relation to what you hear from your system. Odd statement? What I'm getting at is your speakers really define your overall sound. Swapping out preamps, power amps etc will change the overall sound slightly at best. You may get a little more bass or a more detailed mid-range but the speakers are really defining what you hear.

I realised this when I had a few pairs of 8" Fostex full range speakers. No matter how many different amps and sources I tried with them in the end there was much the same sound. The Fostex 8" full range sound.

And now the 15" Beyma speaker sound. I have played 3 very different rube amps and two different high power class D amps and I always get much the same sound. Yes there are variations on the theme but 90% of the overall sound is the speakers. It is their character I am hearing and it cannot be hidden or changed.

What I have found agrees strongly with what I have read in articles over the years. Choose your speakers for the sound you want.

+1, Great post, 100% agree.

[baMarek]

Just conceived for a test a pair of semi open baffle babies with vintage drivers. Midrange/tweeter combo in open baffle powered by an 8W class D amp with a battery PSU can make your ears bleed.

Bass: Tesla ARO in 240l box

Midrange/tweeter: Saba greencone (60years old!)

Despite fully software based crossover and class D bi-amping the vintage sound has been fully preserved. Quite pleasing sound actually.

[mwhouston]

Currently I haven't listened to anything else except my DIY 250W IRS Class D with its massive Mundorf MLytic caps on my 99db efficient Beyma concentrics. But a day ago I replaced the big fella with my DIY 2W 6V6 SE UL tube amp. I did it mid-track after the amp had warmed up. I expected to have to bring up the volume for I had been listening to the "D" at quite a strong volume level. To my surprise the 6V6 amp (Black Lace) held the same volume level with do strain, distortion or clipping. In fact I backed the Vol off a little. Evidently I was only running the big "D" at a watt or two though it sounded quite loud.

 

Not only that I was shocked at how clean the 6V6 sounded against the ultra-pure, totally transparent and highly detailed "D". The bass was the give away with the "D" hitting 40Hz and with vol at 31Hz. The 6V6 gong to a still respectable 50hz. Nothing at 40Hz really.

 

I flipped amps at mid track because I wanted to see just how different the two extremes of audio amplification could sound. The result was; not a lot! Not sure if this says how "tubish" the "D" does sound or how solid state the little flea powered 6V6 can sound. As I have stated many times the sound of any system is probably decided 90% by the speakers. Certainly having high efficiency speakers lets you have a foot in both amp camp extremes - and enjoy both. Enjoying Black Lace at the mo. It may stay in another day or two at this rate.

[blybo]

I guess I can now join this discussion. My Spatial M3's are not ultra high efficiency but rated at 95db, although figure doesn't rate lower frequencies.

 

Pushing my 250w Elektra SS amp and Elektra tube pre through these speakers shows me that with high efficiency speakers, high gain is more of an issue with my set up rather than all that head room. The sound is sublime (and still far from run in) but volume control is finicky. So much so that 1 channel hasn't even woken up fully at the background level my wife often likes. 

 

The Elektra combo is up for sale because of this issue even though Arthur Rappos has offered to attenuate the gain in in the pre for me. I guess once my mind started to wonder regarding other options, I'm also now considering a vastly simplified system with an integrated with DAC and possibly a Phono stage as well.

Edited October 12, 2016 by blybo
spelling

[mwhouston]

I use a DIY tube preamp and my DIY 250W D but I put an attenuator in the D. This allows my to turn my preamp up to better than a third where is possibly runs best.

 

Too much gain and high efficiency speaker can be tricky to get level right. That's why I put an attenuator in the D. After saying that I run the D close to 90% anyway. 

[George-G]

high efficiency rules,it's a better speaker,the sound is fuller

[baMarek]

I guess I can now join this discussion. My Spatial M3's are not ultra high efficiency but rated at 95db, although figure doesn't rate lower frequencies.

 

Pushing my 250w Elektra SS amp and Elektra tube pre through these speakers shows me that with high efficiency speakers, high gain is more of an issue with my set up rather than all that head room. The sound is sublime (and still far from run in) but volume control is finicky. So much so that 1 channel hasn't even woken up fully at the background level my wife often likes. 

 

The Elektra combo is up for sale because of this issue even though Arthur Rappos has offered to attenuate the gain in in the pre for me. I guess once my mind started to wonder regarding other options, I'm also now considering a vastly simplified system with an integrated with DAC and possibly a Phono stage as well.

With high efficiency speakers you want to keep noise level to minimum and your setup would not do it.

I think you had absorbers behind the speakers and your new construction is a dipole. They normally don't like absorbers behind. Try to move the panels to the middle between the speakers and your gear to target the first reflections from the wall.

[blybo]

21 minutes ago, baMarek said:

With high efficiency speakers you want to keep noise level to minimum and your setup would not do it.

I think you had absorbers behind the speakers and your new construction is a dipole. They normally don't like absorbers behind. Try to move the panels to the middle between the speakers and your gear to target the first reflections from the wall.

I may very remove the panels as they really aren't really in the right position anyway and could be useful for first reflection in my HT room. Many Maggie users talk up rear absorption though so thought they weren't doing any harm.

 

I can't treat first reflection points as one side is a glass sliding door and the other is LP storage and fish tank. Spatial have a relatively narrow 80 degree dispersion pattern anyway so they tend to minimise room issues.

[baMarek]

I may very remove the panels as they really aren't really in the right position anyway and could be useful for first reflection in my HT room. Many Maggie users talk up rear absorption though so thought they weren't doing any harm.
 
I can't treat first reflection points as one side is a glass sliding door and the other is LP storage and fish tank. Spatial have a relatively narrow 80 degree dispersion pattern anyway so they tend to minimise room issues.

The first reflections I meant were the ones off the front wall. See my photo 4 posts above.
I know what you mean by difficulty to treat first reflection points on the side walls as I have the same problem. Vertical panels on wheels are the way to go but WAF in this case is challenging.
Regarding dispersion pattern I can assure you that there will always be reflections if the walls are relatively close to speakers. To test it, play 2000Hz sine wave, hold a biiig pillow in your hand and lift it with a straight arm so that the pillow is between your ears and the first reflection point without affecting direct sound from the speakers. You may be surprised how much sound still bounces off the side walls.

[Happy]

i made panels in timber frame with castors. easy to move around.

[blybo]

9 minutes ago, baMarek said:

 

The first reflections I meant were the ones off the front wall. See my photo 4 posts above.
I know what you mean by difficulty to treat first reflection points on the side walls as I have the same problem. Vertical panels on wheels are the way to go but WAF in this case is challenging.
Regarding dispersion pattern I can assure you that there will always be reflections if the walls are relatively close to speakers. To test it, play 2000Hz sine wave, hold a biiig pillow in your hand and lift it with a straight arm so that the pillow is between your ears and the first reflection point without affecting direct sound from the speakers. You may be surprised how much sound still bounces off the side walls.

 

 

Current set up (right speaker was moved out a bit), speakers are about 1.2-1.5m from side walls and 1m from TV wall. From your suggestion, panels would need to be close to the TV. My next plan is to build a low "AV" rack so I can get all my gear under the TV. Couch and coffee table are the biggest hurdles... all in good time. The couch is about 12 years old and refuses to die, god damn Warwick commercial fabrics.

 

Edited October 13, 2016 by blybo