High efficiency speakers appreciation and discussions

[mwhouston]

  On 05/11/2015 at 1:35 PM, Newman said:

Sure, but I could say the same thing about you. You don't care about true performance, you only care about being happy (in post #10). (just raising a point here, not insisting it is true of course)

If I'm happy, it must be true performance (to me).

[mwhouston]

  On 05/11/2015 at 8:33 PM, Newman said:

Anyway, just to prove I'm not trolling, I have a history of being drawn to high-efficiency speakers. My current bass units are in a cabinet 6ft tall and that a hifi-listening guest once asked me why do I have a wardrobe in the room's corners. He wasn't kidding. 

My boxes for the new Beymas will be 140ltr.

[Guest]

@@Newman

less talk, more photos of high efficiency speakers please 

[mwhouston]

  On 05/11/2015 at 8:55 PM, davidro said:

Passive XOs can eat up lots of power and sonics. Thats why I prefer active XOs or FR drivers.

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With the tweeter section of the Beymas being 105db efficient and the woofer section being 98db efficient I have excess efficiency to play with with regard the tweeters. I have two Xovers for the Beymas, but always only 1st order on the woofer section there for a loss of only 1db or so. One set of Xovers crosses at 2K with a 2nd order roll off on the tweeter and the other Xing at 1600Hz with a third order roll off. Currently I have the second of the two Xovers in place. I thinks it's better this way. I pad the tweeter down to bring it in line with the woofer section. By only using 1st order on the woofer I'm losing very little efficiency. As stated above even my little 6V6 SE\UL amp blasts me out of the room. I just love super efficient speakers!

[mwhouston]

  On 05/11/2015 at 9:06 PM, davidro said:

So you had better results with the 180w?

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Lately with my two tube amps playing so well and so hard "better results" is hard to define. But yes 180W of extremely fast Class D Tripath power and the Beymas did have its appeal. At this point preference was still with the tube amps.

[Happy]

  On 05/11/2015 at 9:53 PM, mwhouston said:

Lately with my two tube amps playing so well and so hard "better results" is hard to define. But yes 180W of extremely fast Class D Tripath power and the Beymas did have its appeal. At this point preference was still with the tube amps.

And what is it about the tubes that you prefer over the 180w?

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[mwhouston]

More images please. Great banter though. Thanks for coming on board.

[Guest guru]

I remember hearing my first pair of low efficiency speakers many years ago and thinking they were great at imaging but not so great at dynamics. They were fantastic at making "hifi" but had very little to do with telling me what specific instrument was being played and whether the musicians were having a good time making the recording. They were celestion sl 600's running off stax mono blocks.

[Happy]

  On 05/11/2015 at 10:20 PM, guru said:

I remember hearing my first pair of low efficiency speakers many years ago and thinking they were great at imaging but not so great at dynamics. They were fantastic at making "hifi" but had very little to do with telling me what specific instrument was being played and whether the musicians were having a good time making the recording. They were celestion sl 600's running off stax mono blocks.

 

I think those monitors require their designated bass bin to reproduce full-range. Great monitors. I liked them best on my 300B up to a certain volume.

[Guest guru]

The open baffle subs were a bit of a sales disaster for celestion and really compromised the set up of the sl 600s. As a monitor and for imaging, great but quite "dark" sounding, like being in a carpeted room, as in floor,walls and ceiling.

[acg]

  On 05/11/2015 at 10:20 PM, guru said:

I remember hearing my first pair of low efficiency speakers many years ago and thinking they were great at imaging but not so great at dynamics. They were fantastic at making "hifi" but had very little to do with telling me what specific instrument was being played and whether the musicians were having a good time making the recording. They were celestion sl 600's running off stax mono blocks.

 

As a general rule, I now have a similar experience whenever I listen to conventional low efficiency speakers...but I have come from the other direction...all that I had listened to were low efficiency speakers and then I heard the immediacy and dynamics of the horns and I realised just what I was missing!  High sensitivity is not a holy grail in itself because that just brings a different set of problems to solve but there are more and perhaps better tools available to solve those problems (some of those tools produce a glow), but get on top of those problems and...wow!

[Newman]

  On 05/11/2015 at 9:34 PM, 125dBmonster said:

@@Newman

less talk, more photos of high efficiency speakers please 

 

The bass cabinets I built and described are hideous. A photo would crack my camera lens. Then it would crack 100 computer monitors of audiophiles around the country. See all those gorgeous turntables in luminous gloss black and lovingly french-polished fascias? Nnnnnope. See all those home-honed speaker cabinetmakers' prides of joy, curved surfaces in oak and cherry and walnut, glistening in oil and positively adorned with speaker drivers to which a jeweler would not be ashamed to lay claim? Nnnnnnup. Now picture Dr Who's phone box kicked over onto one side and sawn in half lengthwise, a large box carelessly tossed on top, the whole thing elevated on too-tall spindly legs, with a couple of concrete pavers chucked below and lying in a heap, then spray-painted in industrial-textured green-black and no visible drivers. Now you're getting there. But that's only half of it. There's another one in the other corner.

 

There would be a run on Bex at the national pharmaceuticals distributor if I posted a photo.

[mwhouston]

  On 06/11/2015 at 12:14 AM, Newman said:

The bass cabinets I built and described are hideous. A photo would crack my camera lens. Then it would crack 100 computer monitors of audiophiles around the country. See all those gorgeous turntables in luminous gloss black and lovingly french-polished fascias? Nnnnnope. See all those home-honed speaker cabinetmakers' prides of joy, curved surfaces in oak and cherry and walnut, glistening in oil and positively adorned with speaker drivers to which a jeweler would not be ashamed to lay claim? Nnnnnnup. Now picture Dr Who's phone box kicked over onto one side and sawn in half lengthwise, a large box carelessly tossed on top, the whole thing elevated on too-tall spindly legs, with a couple of concrete pavers chucked below and lying in a heap, then spray-painted in industrial-textured green-black and no visible drivers. Now you're getting there. But that's only half of it. There's another one in the other corner.

 

There would be a run on Bex at the national pharmaceuticals distributor if I posted a photo.

I am really against poorly executed DIY anything. For me it must be form and function. Generally if form is first class function is up there too. It's about care, pride and respect. No room for shabby work. Functional art not just noise for noise sake. I'm running the DIY night at the Melbourne Audio Club in December and I have stipulated no half ass projects, completed neat work only. More than enough have complied.

[Happy]

  On 06/11/2015 at 12:14 AM, Newman said:

The bass cabinets I built and described are hideous. A photo would crack my camera lens. Then it would crack 100 computer monitors of audiophiles around the country. See all those gorgeous turntables in luminous gloss black and lovingly french-polished fascias? Nnnnnope. See all those home-honed speaker cabinetmakers' prides of joy, curved surfaces in oak and cherry and walnut, glistening in oil and positively adorned with speaker drivers to which a jeweler would not be ashamed to lay claim? Nnnnnnup. Now picture Dr Who's phone box kicked over onto one side and sawn in half lengthwise, a large box carelessly tossed on top, the whole thing elevated on too-tall spindly legs, with a couple of concrete pavers chucked below and lying in a heap, then spray-painted in industrial-textured green-black and no visible drivers. Now you're getting there. But that's only half of it. There's another one in the other corner.

 

There would be a run on Bex at the national pharmaceuticals distributor if I posted a photo.

 

Now I'm actually curious.

[Full Range]

For the past 20 or so years I have built several single driver speakers, from folded horn designs to bass reflex

One such build was a 7.1 surround sound system utilising Lowther speaker drivers

As my houses got bigger my speakers got bigger, and experience has taught me that with single driver speakers cabinet size does matter

Having said that, single driver designs are suited for many forms of music from complex Jazz to 60s Rock - but are most excellent in accurate Orchestral instrument definition and also at reproducing human voice

"They are not suited to Heavy Metal style music "

Most people say single driver speakers are Bass Shy - Well that depends on the cabinet size and the style of music one listens to but they do produce very accurate bass as one would hear in real life but can be shy in low htz recorded bass

Amp choice

Although one can use flee power amps with great satisfaction I prefer to use amps close to the speakers rated power handling for best results ( again from personal experience )

Current setup now is a 3 way horn system rated at a min of 104 db

Reason for the change is to relive the sounds of my early days when I worked as an all rounder set up guy in my mates band ( and best man at our wedding )

Edited November 6, 2015 by Full Range

[davewantsmoore]

  On 05/11/2015 at 7:45 AM, Sir Rab of Everest said:

Where's the cat, Anthony?

 

My cats sleep in the bass horns.

 

 

  On 05/11/2015 at 9:22 PM, 125dBmonster said:

more power the better

 

For high sensitivity speakers, best to try for amplifiers with low gain for good gain structure.

[mwhouston]

A little off thread but we (or I) was talking about form and function. I assembled but not wired this Decware inspired EL84 amp seen here with a Sophia mesh plate (really a punch plate) rec tube. The retro-thermionic twist is it will be a SE UL and not triode strapped amp.

Back to form and function. I could have done a poor job of looks but for me it is just as easy to make it look good than look ordinary. I think it look so anyhow. Base is currently raw. I'll create a thread when complete to talk about the amp.

[Newman]

You could have made it without all those ugly little blurs. I thought you cared. 

[Newman]

  On 06/11/2015 at 12:40 AM, mwhouston said:

I am really against poorly executed DIY anything.It's about care, pride and respect. No room for shabby work. 

 

Oh it's excellently executed IMHO.

 

  Quote

 For me it must be form and function. 

 

There is no way to make something that size and shape look good. Maybe a doily mat. Or a weeping angel statue on top: better still, in front.

 

  Quote

Generally if form is first class function is up there too. 

 

That is simply rubbish and indefensible illogic. I was looking at a beautifully executed and attractive Karlson photo the other day. Tried not to actually hold my nose.

 

  Quote

Functional art not just noise for noise sake. I'm running the DIY night at the Melbourne Audio Club in December and I have stipulated no half ass projects, completed neat work only. More than enough have complied.

 

Couldn't care less, sorry.

[mwhouston]

Is indifiensible illogic (double negatives), defensible logic?

That's the beauty of this hobby, each to his own. We may not agree but then we don't have to. Just show respect for other's opinion.

Better shots of the amp to follow once finished.

[Newman]

LOL agree, but indefensible illogic is the only sort of illogic.

 

Regarding appearances, the long hifi history of WAF input (and lets face it, they are the only people passing comment on the appearance of hifi gear who actually have something to lose if they offer false praise, so are most likely to be frank and honest) is that our hobby revolves around ugly, or plain, or stylistically numb, stuff.

 

The occasional significant other is so kind-hearted as to offer false praise, but the majority is an overwhelming and vast majority and their conclusion is clear: it's ugly-as.

 

No matter how much worse some other gear might look, no matter how many mates say its awesome looking, no matter how much praise its style elicits from reviewers and the online community, our gear has a face that only a mother would love. We are the mothers of our gear.

 

For a hifi guy to be scathing and judgmental about the appearance of other guys' gear, just seems to me a bit like the guy who gets eliminated 5 minutes into the first episode of a new series of The Voice, saying that the guy who got eliminated 2 minutes earlier 'sings crap, get off'. Nice.

[Guest]

@@davewantsmoore posted, For high sensitivity speakers, best to try for amplifiers with low gain for good gain structure.

 

 

Low Gain = low noise floor =  , high dynamics, for a proper frequency response, 20hz  or lower to 20Khz, for that you need power, lots of power regardless of efficiency. When the jaw drops, the BS stops.   All due respect and admiration for flee power with super efficiency. Not for me or my style music. Great thread !!!!  IMHO, make the most of the "effortless drive and micro detail"  of highly efficient speakers with over doing the power requirements. 

Edited November 6, 2015 by Guest

[THOMO]

The problem with most high sensitivity drivers is that they have not been designed for use in domestic settings with low input power.They are designed for rock concerts and even outdoor music.

In domestic use they end up being fed with about half a watt.Yet take a look at the frequency response of these drivers [especially bass] when fed such low power.They tend not measure anything like their published[optimal] response.

 

So then you end up having to use equalisation [which is what they were designed for anyway].And that most often compromises the sound too.

 

That is why I have come to the conclusion that you are really better off using domestic type drivers and aiming for more like 93db sensitivity rather than 100db  and using 15 watt amps rather than 1.5 watts.In absolute terms perhaps a compromise but just so much easier to get sounding right.

 

Mainstream speakers like the Focal Electra 1038BE are a very good example of such a  speaker.Plenty of dynamics there but also plenty of refinement.

The larger Osborn speakers too.

[mwhouston]

  On 06/11/2015 at 3:11 AM, Newman said:

LOL agree, but indefensible illogic is the only sort of illogic.

 

Regarding appearances, the long hifi history of WAF input (and lets face it, they are the only people passing comment on the appearance of hifi gear who actually have something to lose if they offer false praise, so are most likely to be frank and honest) is that our hobby revolves around ugly, or plain, or stylistically numb, stuff.

 

The occasional significant other is so kind-hearted as to offer false praise, but the majority is an overwhelming and vast majority and their conclusion is clear: it's ugly-as.

 

No matter how much worse some other gear might look, no matter how many mates say its awesome looking, no matter how much praise its style elicits from reviewers and the online community, our gear has a face that only a mother would love. We are the mothers of our gear.

 

For a hifi guy to be scathing and judgmental about the appearance of other guys' gear, just seems to me a bit like the guy who gets eliminated 5 minutes into the first episode of a new series of The Voice, saying that the guy who got eliminated 2 minutes earlier 'sings crap, get off'. Nice.

Too morbid a opinion. And only an opinion.

[Newman]

And where in my post did I give my opinion on the appearance of hifi gear? Unfortunately for us, it's the unbiased judges who have voted overwhelmingly.