CryptiK Posted December 13, 2016 Posted December 13, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said: .... in general, well designed drivers of today, are drastically higher in performance, than decades gone. Modern materials and design methods have advanced a lot. There's examples of designs from yesteryear which are still desirable for certain reasons .... and the 'average' of today is cheap, small and loud (a terrible design brief) ..... so that might skew opinions some. Absolutely right. Theres some 'exotic' drivers using rather traditional 'old school' cabinet designs. Look at the voxative 9.87's with their single driver made from wood, for example. I've been really surprised looking at many high efficiency setups at trade shows and people's own - they almost all use valve amps. SET's are common, perhaps 25wpc max with some amps. Why? Are they taming a harsh top end response? Does their slightly romantic, euphonic sound pair well with the high levels of immediacy and forward presentation high efficiency speakers tend to have? Would a low power single ended class A amp not be better? Edited December 13, 2016 by CryptiK 1
Luc Posted December 13, 2016 Posted December 13, 2016 9 minutes ago, CryptiK said: Absolutely right. Theres some 'exotic' drivers using rather traditional 'old school' cabinet designs. Look at the voxative 9.87's with their single driver made from wood, for example. I've been really surprised looking at many high efficiency setups at trade shows and people's own - they almost all use valve amps. SET's are common, perhaps 25wpc max with some amps. Why? Are they taming a harsh top end response? Does their slightly romantic, euphonic sound pair well with the high levels of immediacy and forward presentation high efficiency speakers tend to have? Would a low power single ended class A amp not be better? These things?
CryptiK Posted December 13, 2016 Posted December 13, 2016 2 minutes ago, Luc said: These things? Yep the AC4X
davewantsmoore Posted December 13, 2016 Posted December 13, 2016 36 minutes ago, CryptiK said: I've been really surprised looking at many high efficiency setups at trade shows and people's own - they almost all use valve amps. SET's are common, perhaps 25wpc max with some amps. Would a low power single ended class A amp not be better? I assume you mean a with a transistor.... as "low power single ended class A amp", is just what SET typically is. A properly horn loaded driver only needs tiny power in a small room. Quote Why? Are they taming a harsh top end response? Does their slightly romantic, euphonic sound pair well with the high levels of immediacy and forward presentation high efficiency speakers tend to have? I don't think so. Their performance is great if you don't need more power / less distortion / less output impedance.
baMarek Posted December 13, 2016 Posted December 13, 2016 Absolutely right. Theres some 'exotic' drivers using rather traditional 'old school' cabinet designs. Look at the voxative 9.87's with their single driver made from wood, for example. I've been really surprised looking at many high efficiency setups at trade shows and people's own - they almost all use valve amps. SET's are common, perhaps 25wpc max with some amps. Why? Are they taming a harsh top end response? Does their slightly romantic, euphonic sound pair well with the high levels of immediacy and forward presentation high efficiency speakers tend to have? Would a low power single ended class A amp not be better? Aren't many decent 25wpc SETs also single ended class A amps???Maybe they just sound better with HE speakers? Some say "harsh top end response", others say "details" ;-). SETs based on 845, 805 or 211 are often so "romantic" that they could intimidate my old Plinius amp with their bass control.
mwhouston Posted December 13, 2016 Author Posted December 13, 2016 (edited) I have read all the comments and posts. There is no absolute answer. We all respond to how we think components should work together, how we understand individual components or how we perceive, from a personal point of view, components sound. No one really knows all the answers but it is important that we think we do and thus can enjoy the hobby. All good grist for the mill, the mill of audio. In system two I have a DIY 4W 807 SE UL amp with DIY two way large bookshelf low efficiency speakers. I love the sound, I use the system every day, it plays loud enough and with great bass but HE speakers give me the power to flip between u-power amps (SS or tube) and high powered amps with even less audible boundaries but only in some areas. The bass from my 2-ways "sounds" better. But then my HE Beymas will play loud with my DIY UX-171A 330mW power amp. All good grist. http://retro-thermionic.blogspot.com.au/2012/03/luciano-807-power-amp.html Edited December 13, 2016 by mwhouston 1
mwhouston Posted December 13, 2016 Author Posted December 13, 2016 You may have seen this before but here is Intermezzo, UX-171A power amp, built in a 1940s wooden pot base. http://retro-thermionic.blogspot.com.au/2013/03/intermezzo-1920-ux-171-power-amp.html
CryptiK Posted December 13, 2016 Posted December 13, 2016 10 hours ago, baMarek said: Aren't many decent 25wpc SETs also single ended class A amps??? Maybe they just sound better with HE speakers? Some say "harsh top end response", others say "details" ;-). SETs based on 845, 805 or 211 are often so "romantic" that they could intimidate my old Plinius amp with their bass control. I actually meant valve amps in single ended triode (SET) mode or triode designs. I guess you can arrange a mosfet amp the same way, I should have been more clear!
Newman Posted December 13, 2016 Posted December 13, 2016 A single ended (SE) amp will always be class A, no matter the circuit details. The definition of class A is that the output devices never turn off while there is signal, so, if you think about a single ended amp, the output devices can't possibly turn off while there is signal or the music would stop! So it must be class A. The 'T' in SET stands for triode, so a SET is always a valve amp, and the SE stands for single ended, so they will always be class A. If it's a single ended mosfet amp, some called them SEM but it never took off, so they are usually called SE MOSFET. Again, always class A by definition.
Guest BobbyD Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 (edited) Some fun was had today having a listen to some high efficiency old world speakers that some friends dropped in for a listen. Some very interesting speaker cables and stands were also trialled. These Toshiba's are amazing and could show up a lot of modern day offerings. Thanks Jon @THOMO and Andrew @a.dent for popping in and sharing these little gems. Edited February 1, 2017 by BobbyD .
mwhouston Posted January 29, 2017 Author Posted January 29, 2017 @SETSergio Do you have a close-up image of one of the speakers only?
mwhouston Posted January 29, 2017 Author Posted January 29, 2017 This amp has been posted in the DIY forum but I'm using it with my high effciency Beymas. I've built two of these over the last few weeks. The first was a little hurried but still sounded good. The one in the image here is a much refined version of the first. It is still a 6L6\12AT7 SE UL power amp. An external tranni box supplies 12VAC (heaters) and 250VAC (HT) to the amp where the 250VAC is rectified and filtered to produce 300VDC. Long story short though the amp only produces two to three watts with the 99db efficient Beymas it is more than enough power. Once more the beauty of high effciency speakers allows me to build low power amps but enjoy high volume levels not achievable with less efficient speakers. With the previous version of the amp the lower 3db point was 50hz with still good volume at 40hz. The speakers themselves don't go much lower with one of my Class D amps. With a SS amp lower 3db point is 40hz with some volume at 30Hz. The amp\speaker combo though sounds excellent. Where I was enjoying my DIY Class D monoblocks (150W) with these speakers I'm finding this combo even better. Still waiting for the amp to run in with only about two hours of play. Looking forward to the 50 hour mark. 1
Guest BobbyD Posted January 29, 2017 Posted January 29, 2017 3 hours ago, mwhouston said: @SETSergio Do you have a close-up image of one of the speakers only? Incoming PM Mark.........
THOMO Posted January 30, 2017 Posted January 30, 2017 11 hours ago, SETSergio said: Some fun was had today having a listen to some high efficiency old world speakers that some friends dropped in for a listen. Some very interesting speaker cables and stands were also trialled. These Toshiba's are amazing and could show up a lot of modern day offerings. Thanks Jon @THOMO and Andrew for popping in and sharing these little gems. It was great to hear Steve's system at last. Wonderful sounding all valve system with that rarest of combinations of precision,dynamics,beautiful timbre ,timing and musical engagement.You can't help move to and be moved by the music played it sounds especially magical on live recordings. Those Toshiba speakers are a bit special but it is the best I have heard them sounding. Another WA member has them running with an Audio Note Ongaku amplifier-that would be something to hear. 1
mwhouston Posted January 31, 2017 Author Posted January 31, 2017 I lean more to the concentrics; Beyma and Tannoy for example. Still point source with better control and flexibility. Better bass and treble. Its just me.
Guest Posted February 1, 2017 Posted February 1, 2017 22 hours ago, mwhouston said: I lean more to the concentrics; Beyma and Tannoy for example. Still point source with better control and flexibility. Better bass and treble. Its just me. Did someone say "point source"
Guest Posted February 1, 2017 Posted February 1, 2017 1 hour ago, mwhouston said: @125dBmonster Golly. The "thing" has been running nicely Mark. Not that efficient though the amps get through 6Kwh a day if left on.
mwhouston Posted February 1, 2017 Author Posted February 1, 2017 3 minutes ago, 125dBmonster said: The "thing" has been running nicely Mark. Not that efficient though the amps get through 6Kwh a day if left on. Hard to image what it would sound like. One of those times you would just have to be there. I would imagine a nightmare to balance.
Guest Posted February 1, 2017 Posted February 1, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, mwhouston said: Hard to image what it would sound like. One of those times you would just have to be there. I would imagine a nightmare to balance. Sounds like any other lovely speaker systems.Focus like headphones from the chair and not played loud (often). Impression of this it envelopes the chair/listener effortlessly in the image a huge wide deep sound plane. Really cool to come in, sit and listen for a few tracks, relaxing in a sound plane soup The staging is impressive with all sorts of separated sounds dancing around in various widths or in a solid stage placement. Balance has been ok, but it takes getting used to because of the width and depth of the imaging. It loves decent media and shows immediately any compression in the playback imposed by lo res formats. Immediate and doesn't miss a thing is the presentation with sub 20ms decay times to 30hz in the room Records have been a challenge but early days, a cart that is quieter in the groove would be nice. Had an issue with bias left initially running the TT ended up a driver configuration issue in the PC. Running the "La Gitana" valve pre you made is going well although is there a such a thing as a warmer sounding pair of tubes for it. Its good but bright and edgy excellent in most other ways. Haven't had a lot of time to play around with it changing components yet. The system is inaudible at idle in a very quiet room, having to look at the leds to indicate it's on before dropping a record on. Edited February 1, 2017 by Guest
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted February 1, 2017 Volunteer Posted February 1, 2017 22 hours ago, DavidPiska said: I recommended back loaded horn cabinet for strong bass as Evolution speakers from RDacoustic. Do you recommend them 'cos you sell them ....
mwhouston Posted February 1, 2017 Author Posted February 1, 2017 @125dBmonster live dangerously, try any 12A*7 tube. But the JJs have been chosen because they are a short plate. This probaly translates to low microphonics. So before purchasing other tubes ensure they are short plates. Not hard to do, should be plenty out there.
Guest Posted February 1, 2017 Posted February 1, 2017 1 hour ago, mwhouston said: @125dBmonster live dangerously, try any 12A*7 tube. But the JJs have been chosen because they are a short plate. This probaly translates to low microphonics. So before purchasing other tubes ensure they are short plates. Not hard to do, should be plenty out there. Thanks Mate I'll look some up ! What La Gitana is good at is being nice behaved and quiet (eccellent power supply), snaps into life Ok good solid output Looking forward to trying the Mimic and op amp rolling again, that's cool, plus the KC5433 Jaycar to build. All good.
mwhouston Posted February 1, 2017 Author Posted February 1, 2017 5 minutes ago, 125dBmonster said: Thanks Mate I'll look some up ! What La Gitana is good at is being nice behaved and quiet (eccellent power supply), snaps into life Ok good solid output Looking forward to trying the Mimic and op amp rolling again, that's cool, plus the KC5433 Jaycar to build. All good. Mate, enjoy.
Guest Posted February 1, 2017 Posted February 1, 2017 1 hour ago, mwhouston said: Mate, enjoy. Thanks for the help along the way
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