soundbyte Posted October 3, 2019 Posted October 3, 2019 Pleased to hear that things have progressed since last year, is it really that long? Russell.
Galactic Soap Posted October 3, 2019 Posted October 3, 2019 Well done mate. Looks incredible and no doubt sounds even better. Top effort re: the carpentry work as well. Got to love those easy jobs that turn into a labor of love but the end product looks well worth it. Bit of a left-field question but does Mrs M offer any skype based coaching/consulting services? If so, I'd love to buy a few sessions for my better half. Any woman that can humor a man with what I count to be 13 speakers surely deserves her own book/speaking tour of Australia so some of our long suffering partners can learn secret. WOW! What a collection!
Grant Slack Posted October 4, 2019 Posted October 4, 2019 Hello Tony, you have made quite a few progressions since I was last there. Well done! cheers Grant
Ooogh Posted October 4, 2019 Posted October 4, 2019 Just shows how hard and frustrating this hobby can be. Pretty much four years since the AG’s arrived. In that time Tony has put every amp in the cupboard and a fair few more across these speakers. Played around with crossover points, fiddled with wires, ditched the pre, changed the DAC, got a turbo spectacular server, howled at the moon, lost half his hair and learned how to rhumba. Now he is finally at a point where he is satisfied with the sound. Thirteen pairs of speakers? There are more in the house! First time I had the privilege of hearing the AG’s in this huge acoustic space I said to Tony “these speakers can be anything with the right amp”. I was partly right, they also needed the correct everything else! The big screen adds a whole new dimension, those visual clues let you stop analysing and drift into the event, even Leonard Cohen..... The Adelaide Hills mob have been very fortunate to spend many an evening enjoying this system and other great combinations like Suhendran’s mighty Bryston into the Gale 401’s in this monster shed. I am very thankful to Tony, the Adelaide boys and SNA they we have been able to share and enjoy this journey. 3
zippi Posted October 4, 2019 Posted October 4, 2019 18 hours ago, Tony M said: and Leonard Cohen goes....that...is not a horn speaker...THIS (AG's in Tony's shed) is a horn speaker 1
Tony M Posted November 21, 2020 Author Posted November 21, 2020 (edited) This is crazy – 40+ year old Gales replacing AvantGardes? Well, so far at least, that's been the case here over the past 8 months. A bit of back story: In August, in @Steve M's thread: I posted the following: “ FWIW, I have had several pairs of both NS1000M's and Gale 401's for many years. During almost all of that time, I clearly preferred the Yamaha's, but couldn't bear to part with the Gales, partly because of their aesthetics, iconic status and their whole amazing story. When a small group of us in SA were auditioning gear for Classic Album Sundays, one combination that gelled superbly was the teaming of a 600W Bryston power amp with the Gales and that was an absolute revelation. I was left with no alternative but to invest in a big Bryston amp and, for the past few months at least, the Gales have usurped AvantGarde Duo Omegas as my favourite listen, albeit with some assistance from an old pair of Richter Evokator subs - well. they are playing in a largish room! I hope to get around to posting more about the current set-up soon as I think it's something a bit special at a relatively low entry fee. But my point in posting in this thread is to endorse the fact that classic, iconic speakers tend to have achieved that status for good reason. There's some real magic in both of these models and, with the right pairing and set-up they can hold their own against much more expensive current speakers. Anyone who witnessed the amazing comparison of a pair of NS1000's with a pair of $35K Focals at the show a few years ago was made aware of that. "Classic status" is not always a predictor of ultimate user satisfaction. But it is a solid indication that there's something special lurking in a particular design and suggests the potential for real magic with some care and attention to get the setup right. And there's some genuine gratification to be achieved by getting truly outstanding results from something that's 40+ years old and costs a fraction of the price of current equivalents. Classic cars have their own charm and allure and I'd own one in a heartbeat if I could make that work. But, by any objective measure, they can't match the current models for performance despite being worth many times as much. We're fortunate in a way that the equation is reversed with speakers. The classics are much cheaper and the performance is right up there and, in some cases, actually better. :)” Since then nothing has changed except that I have become even more awed by what the old Gales can achieve with the right amplification. The sound is big, solid, accurate and detailed. Here I’m judging accuracy by how natural and real things like piano and voices sound. Detail is apparent by how effortlessly my aging ears easily discern lyrics that have previously flown under the radar. But the real trick is that the sound is at the same time sweet, warm musical and engaging. There is no subjective impression of harshness or etched detail. PRAT is there in spades and the soundstage is huge when it should be. The midrange, with those marvellous Peerless drivers, is particularly superb to my ears. Just effortless musicality in a manner that I’ve occasionally heard at shows and in other systems but never before achieved so consistently and over such a wide range of music in my own home system. I have to attribute this largely to the superb synergy with the Bryston amp. Thanks again @aks2600 for selling it to me, @Ooogh and @amdan for telling me I needed to buy it and @christosd for transacting the deal and bringing it safely back from Melbourne for me. Many other amps that have failed to provide ongoing satisfaction include Rotel Michi, Xindaks, Accuphase etc etc, all of which were about 150 wpc. As @Peter_F has consistently urged, the gales absolutely need 500+ wpc to give their best. And maybe the room is a factor too. The Gales work extremely well at the Classic Album Sunday sessions in a very big room and they seem to love the shed. I can’t get the pair in the study (about 4 X 8 metres) to sound consistently engaging. I should haul the Bryston over there and see what changes that makes, but it’s heavy and I’m old and lazy. Another aspect that intrigues me is that the Bryston amp seems to be relatively low gain. Using the AMR as a pre, the system cam be played at full volume without clipping, distortion, squashed dynamics or anything breaking. Of course, on some tracks this is very loud indeed and I never feel the need for more gain. If I ever did, I’d know it’s time to stop drinking red and go to bed! So, In many ways this is a happy story. March to November is long enough for me to know this isn’t a passing infatuation. It’s the real thing and enjoyment of and respect for the Gale/Bryston combination just seems to increase with every listening session. Feedback from other locals who have heard this system consistently endorses my opinion. The dilemma is that there seems to be no logical way a speaker designed and built 40 years ago has any right to be this good. I should be able to find something more modern that easily surpasses it. But it’s hard to know this unless I can access any contender at home for an extended period. I simply don’t trust my ears to extrapolate from relatively brief auditions in other rooms, eg at Hifi Shows. And then there are the AvantGardes sadly moping in the corners collecting dust and cobwebs, but still looking very pretty and decorative indeed. I know that, paired with the Audions, they can do things the Gales cannot. I need to get them back into position and revisit their considerable merits. But I’ve been meaning to do that for months. The simple fact is that I’ve been enjoying the Gales do much that I’ve had little or no incentive to do so. That’s good in a way, but also frustrating and it presents so many dilemmas on where I go from here. I can’t be a true audiophile if I’m content, can I? Edited November 21, 2020 by Tony M 10 1
evil c Posted November 21, 2020 Posted November 21, 2020 Nice write up @Tony M, enjoyed the NS1000M speakers for a few years, and like you a big fan of the Bryston amplifier. Not much gain??? Hmmm, sure there isn't a switch on the back? I spent a week scratching my head what was missing, before I twigged I'd knocked the toggle switch from 29dB to 23dB ! Impressive however staying so clean at high volume levels. 1
Tony M Posted November 21, 2020 Author Posted November 21, 2020 3 minutes ago, evil c said: Hmmm, sure there isn't a switch on the back? I spent a week scratching my head what was missing, before I twigged I'd knocked the toggle switch from 29dB to 23dB ! Impressive however staying so clean at high volume levels. Thanks Clive, but I know about this switch and it's in the high gain setting. @amdan's amp was the same. It's a mystery, but I've noticed massive differences in amplifier gain in the past, totally unrelated to power. I think the AMR DAC/Pre is essentally a passive device and doesn't add significant gain of its own. In another system I use an NAD M51 DAC/pre, Sony TAN8550 V-fet amp and Epos ES14 speakers and this system can also go to full volume (loud+) without compression, strain or damage. In some ways, it's a nice safety factor. 2
tubularbells Posted November 21, 2020 Posted November 21, 2020 Was a very interesting read. Never heard the 401's but posts such as this are bumping them higher up on my music bucket list. 2
Ooogh Posted November 21, 2020 Posted November 21, 2020 Bloody @evil c and @Tubularbells. Listen you two reprobates , keep your hands away from the Gales! The last thing we need is you two increasing demand on a dwindling supply! It is true, @Tony M appears to have found audiophile contentment. This is a rare disease that only the fortunate few individuals achieve. Much like enlightenment it is a state of pure bliss where one wants and desires nothing but to spin another track so it falls just short of reaching Nirvana. Personally I would never spin Nirvana, but one man’s meat is another man’s poison. I am probably a bigger fan of the AG’s than most, they do some remarkable things, but the Gales do more stuff, more enjoyably, more often. Which would I keep? Tough proposition. The AMR is definitely a low gain beast but it seems to meld perfectly with the monster Bryson. Substituting the fantastic Ayon CD5s In it’s place somehow breaks the magic. Very strange as this is an absolute 5 star DAC analog pre. Tomorrow Tony’s even better sounding 401C’s will be visiting club Ooogh. It is a battle of the midrange masters. Ambience Ribbons V Peerless midrange ‘soup cans’. Who’s cuisine will rain supreme? Much smaller space but only 300Watts of Bryston 4BSST2. Do they need the full fat 600W to sing? We will see. Experience has taught us the SST2 surpasses the SST, in a fit of madness I sold my 4B3 to some Evil bast#rd in Melbourne, that would be better still. If a 14B3 ever hits the market I will be egging our Tony on to take the plunge. 1 3
evil c Posted November 21, 2020 Posted November 21, 2020 13 minutes ago, Ooogh said: Bloody @evil c and @Tubularbells. Listen you two reprobates , keep your hands away from the Gales! The last thing we need is you two increasing demand on a dwindling supply! Tomorrow Tony’s even better sounding 401C’s will be visiting club Ooogh. It is a battle of the midrange masters. Ambience Ribbons V Peerless midrange ‘soup cans’. Who’s cuisine will rain supreme? Much smaller space but only 300Watts of Bryston 4BSST2. Do they need the full fat 600W to sing? We will see. Experience has taught us the SST2 surpasses the SST, in a fit of madness I sold my 4B3 to some Evil bast#rd in Melbourne, that would be better still. If a 14B3 ever hits the market I will be egging our Tony on to take the plunge. Hmmm worth getting obviously these Gales, @Tony M surely has too many pairs for one man! It's your fault, you pushed me twice to buy the 4B3, makes you a fool twice over! I've tried to steer you to worthy substitutes/ pale imitations- seen a few Pass XA30 8s you've passed over! I could grant you lifetime visitation rights, just need to visit evil springs of course . 1
Ooogh Posted November 21, 2020 Posted November 21, 2020 1 hour ago, evil c said: Hmmm worth getting obviously these Gales, @Tony M surely has too many pairs for one man! It's your fault, you pushed me twice to buy the 4B3, makes you a fool twice over! I've tried to steer you to worthy substitutes/ pale imitations- seen a few Pass XA30 8s you've passed over! I could grant you lifetime visitation rights, just need to visit evil springs of course . That is my problem Clive, all my life I have traded on my stunning good looks, not my intelligence! They really are lovely those PassLabs, just not enough juice for Gales and Ribbons unfortunately, but the tone is to die for. Count me in if a pair of 60.5’s ever surface. Very dangerous visiting Club Evil, the way borders are opening and closing I might get stuck in Victoria!! Oh the humanity... 3
Tony M Posted July 24, 2023 Author Posted July 24, 2023 (edited) Well, it's two and a half years later and a few changes have been made, though a lot stays the same. The bit I like best is that the AvantGardes are back in the main speaker position and sounding gorgeous. I owe a lot of that outcome to a local friend who is an enthusiastic DIYer. He was intrigued by the fact that I seemed to prefer the Gales to the Avantgardes and wanted to know why. When I described a certain hardness in the midrange that I had been unable to entirely eliminate, he predicted there would be a peak at about 2K Hz and the treble would be "too hot". Measurements bore out exactly what he expected. So, his suggested solution was to add an inductor to the midrange to reduce the 2K peak by making the mids roll off a little lower as well as an autoformer and variable resistor to experiment with varying degrees of treble attenuation. A bit of careful investigation into what wonders resided in the tin cans that form the mid and treble units of the speakers reassured me those changes could be made relatively easily and would be entirely reversible. The initial result looked like this: When I was happy with the midrange, I got hold of some better inductors .... and put them into the midrange cylinders, attached to the non-metallic endcaps: Re the tweeters, I experimented with various levels of attenuation using the autoformer and resistance in parallel at around the calculated values. a string of resistors that could give various values depending on the attachments of the alligator clips was substituted for the variable resistor and eventually the current values were locked in and Mundorf resistors were sourced. So the treble bits are still hanging out of the speakers - when I get brave enough they will go inside and "nobody's gonna know!" So, that's where things are now re the speakers. Other changes in recent times are: Innuos Phoenix added to system Some "proper" speakers cables and interconnects have also been added - from Geoff at Aurealis (highly recommended) My old Richter Evokator subs have been repositioned to asymmetric locations near the back and side walls. I used the trick of sitting one of the subs on the listening chair and crawled around the room looking for places where the bass sounded best. A second tier of seating has been added for home theatre duties - sofa is an Ikea cheapie, but it does the job. A stand for the old laptop used to navigate Roon has been added - this was an engineering drama in itself as the old Asus is definitely a heavyweight! My treasured AMR DAC which is also used as a preamp developed a fault with the left channel intermittently dropping in volume. I bought another one on SNA, but this too unfortunately was faulty. I had to send it back to the vendor, who refunded instantly without any hassle. Then @grizzly put me onto a superb local tech, who was willing to dismantle the AMR and resolder any suspect connections on the main board. That was about a year ago and it has been fine since.. It still leaves me with a volume control display I can't read from the listening seat, but the camera and old rarely-used surface pro fixes that. I also managed to score some very nice NOS valves and I'm currently using 1964 Siemen's in the input position and Amperex "bugle boys" in the driver position. I've also finally accepted Avantgarde's recommendations re toeing in the speakers and they now point towards the listening seat. I much prefer the aesthetics of speakers toed out more than this, but I have to admit this way sounds better and even works better at the other end of the room, which surprised me a bit. Also had some acrylic covers made for the valve amps when not in use as dusting them was a pain. So, all in all, quite a few incremental changes in the past couple of years. The result is a sound that I'm genuinely rapt in. I hear other systems that I used to be very envious of and, while I still appreciate them, I'm now happy with where my system is at - it makes music to my ears. By far the biggest change was taming the Avantgarde's treble and midrange. No-one that has heard it recently has suggested that this was a retrograde step - the general consensus has been very consistently the opposite. It allows the full dynamics and scale of the system to be appreciated without aggression, except where a bit of bite is appropriate. And I love the "meat on the bones" that has displaced the "shoutyness" that bothered me before. I could rattle on about the soundstage and the lovely, forward mids, but it's all just words. The simple fact is that I now enjoy the system without reservation, but it's taken a long time to get to that stage. Well, a drizzly Monday arvo left me with the options of tacking the daunting task of figuring out how to get the autoformers and resistors into the tweeter cylinders and sorting out the wiring mess or diverting my attention to doing this overdue update post and I chose the path of least resistance. The tricky bits can wait until I get round to it! Huge thanks and cheers to the local SNA crew who have been very encouraging with their comments and gentle with their critiques along the way. Edited July 24, 2023 by Tony M 19 3
Keith_W Posted July 24, 2023 Posted July 24, 2023 (edited) Looking amazing, Tony! Are you sure that that 2kHz peak is due to driver output and not reverb? Edited July 24, 2023 by Keith_W 1
Tony M Posted July 25, 2023 Author Posted July 25, 2023 20 hours ago, Keith_W said: Are you sure that that 2kHz peak is due to driver output and not reverb? Hi Keith I'm not sure of anything in this game! However, rightly or wrongly, I've always associated significant peaks in the mid and treble ranges with basic speaker characteristics, rather than room reflections. Bass, of course is another story. Also, none of my other speakers have exhibited this phenomenon when placed in the same position in the same room. And it was reasonably consistent with the Avantgardes regardless of positioning, toe-in etc. The characteristics of peaks in the 1 to 4 KHz range are reported to be "listening fatigue, tinny, attack / harsh, i.e. a less rounder tone." My speakers had always leant a bit in that direction, hence the ongoing niggling discontent and the protracted affair with the gorgeous Gales. In the end, I'm rapt in the result and I guess that's what matters. I do wonder of course why the Avantgardes were voiced that way in the first place - perhaps different priorities/tastes? I don't feel the changes have deprived me of any of the significant positive attributes that have always been part of the experience of these speakers. Maybe I just prefer a more rounded, full and mellow sound than other Avantgarde customers. This way, I feel I'm getting a custom result that suits me exactly. But I feel reasonably sure it was a characteristic of the speakers rather than the room, which has always been quite speaker friendly. 2
Willmax Posted July 28, 2023 Posted July 28, 2023 On 24/07/2023 at 6:00 PM, Tony M said: Well, it's two and a half years later and a few changes have been made, though a lot stays the same. The bit I like best is that the AvantGardes are back in the main speaker position and sounding gorgeous. I owe a lot of that outcome to a local friend who is an enthusiastic DIYer. He was intrigued by the fact that I seemed to prefer the Gales to the Avantgardes and wanted to know why. When I described a certain hardness in the midrange that I had been unable to entirely eliminate, he predicted there would be a peak at about 2K Hz and the treble would be "too hot". Measurements bore out exactly what he expected. So, his suggested solution was to add an inductor to the midrange to reduce the 2K peak by making the mids roll off a little lower as well as an autoformer and variable resistor to experiment with varying degrees of treble attenuation. A bit of careful investigation into what wonders resided in the tin cans that form the mid and treble units of the speakers reassured me those changes could be made relatively easily and would be entirely reversible. The initial result looked like this: When I was happy with the midrange, I got hold of some better inductors .... and put them into the midrange cylinders, attached to the non-metallic endcaps: Re the tweeters, I experimented with various levels of attenuation using the autoformer and resistance in parallel at around the calculated values. a string of resistors that could give various values depending on the attachments of the alligator clips was substituted for the variable resistor and eventually the current values were locked in and Mundorf resistors were sourced. So the treble bits are still hanging out of the speakers - when I get brave enough they will go inside and "nobody's gonna know!" So, that's where things are now re the speakers. Other changes in recent times are: Innuos Phoenix added to system Some "proper" speakers cables and interconnects have also been added - from Geoff at Aurealis (highly recommended) My old Richter Evokator subs have been repositioned to asymmetric locations near the back and side walls. I used the trick of sitting one of the subs on the listening chair and crawled around the room looking for places where the bass sounded best. A second tier of seating has been added for home theatre duties - sofa is an Ikea cheapie, but it does the job. A stand for the old laptop used to navigate Roon has been added - this was an engineering drama in itself as the old Asus is definitely a heavyweight! My treasured AMR DAC which is also used as a preamp developed a fault with the left channel intermittently dropping in volume. I bought another one on SNA, but this too unfortunately was faulty. I had to send it back to the vendor, who refunded instantly without any hassle. Then @grizzly put me onto a superb local tech, who was willing to dismantle the AMR and resolder any suspect connections on the main board. That was about a year ago and it has been fine since.. It still leaves me with a volume control display I can't read from the listening seat, but the camera and old rarely-used surface pro fixes that. I also managed to score some very nice NOS valves and I'm currently using 1964 Siemen's in the input position and Amperex "bugle boys" in the driver position. I've also finally accepted Avantgarde's recommendations re toeing in the speakers and they now point towards the listening seat. I much prefer the aesthetics of speakers toed out more than this, but I have to admit this way sounds better and even works better at the other end of the room, which surprised me a bit. Also had some acrylic covers made for the valve amps when not in use as dusting them was a pain. So, all in all, quite a few incremental changes in the past couple of years. The result is a sound that I'm genuinely rapt in. I hear other systems that I used to be very envious of and, while I still appreciate them, I'm now happy with where my system is at - it makes music to my ears. By far the biggest change was taming the Avantgarde's treble and midrange. No-one that has heard it recently has suggested that this was a retrograde step - the general consensus has been very consistently the opposite. It allows the full dynamics and scale of the system to be appreciated without aggression, except where a bit of bite is appropriate. And I love the "meat on the bones" that has displaced the "shoutyness" that bothered me before. I could rattle on about the soundstage and the lovely, forward mids, but it's all just words. The simple fact is that I now enjoy the system without reservation, but it's taken a long time to get to that stage. Well, a drizzly Monday arvo left me with the options of tacking the daunting task of figuring out how to get the autoformers and resistors into the tweeter cylinders and sorting out the wiring mess or diverting my attention to doing this overdue update post and I chose the path of least resistance. The tricky bits can wait until I get round to it! Huge thanks and cheers to the local SNA crew who have been very encouraging with their comments and gentle with their critiques along the way. As others have said, great write up @Tony M and thanks for the update. Your passion and dedication really comes through reading your story. Having the 'red' Avantgarde as the crown jewel of your room/collection really binds it all together!! Cheers 1
aertex Posted October 2, 2023 Posted October 2, 2023 (edited) On 25/07/2023 at 1:52 PM, Tony M said: I don't feel the changes have deprived me of any of the significant positive attributes that have always been part of the experience of these speakers. Maybe I just prefer a more rounded, full and mellow sound than other Avantgarde customers. This way, I feel I'm getting a custom result that suits me exactly. Hi Tony. I suspect your thoughts and findings via your ears are correct. AG's can be made to sound very very dynamic and bordering on something maybe not so nice, especially with "hard" sounding amps.....or they can be made to sound extremely resolute, smooth, natural.....and dynamic-with great tube amps. I seems we might share similar preferred sound for our Duo's. Good on you for getting your's to your liking as they are very worthy horns to live with and enjoy. SE amps love them too. Please keep us posted with any other developments and points you may want to share with us. Alan Edited October 2, 2023 by aertex 1
Tony M Posted December 2, 2024 Author Posted December 2, 2024 (edited) Last week I had the absolute privilege of hosting an afternoon/evening in the shed with Cameron of Maxmedia showcasing the new Innuos NG. Thought I might as well post a few pics to show the GTG scene in SA is alive and well and several of the usual suspects were able to make it despite being a weekday. Also I realize I haven't been posting as much lately, mainly due to being old and lazy. Anyway, I think I was too busy playing host/chatting/drinking to form firm impressions re the audio aspects but I'm delighted to find that at least one of our group has an Innuos NG on order and another owns a Phoenix Net (I hadn't realized that was in the system on the day). So I've been promised the opportunity to do "single component swap /A B comparisons with those goodies in the near future. I'm looking forward to that! Edited December 2, 2024 by Tony M 17 3
evil c Posted December 2, 2024 Posted December 2, 2024 @Tony M Love it ! Nice to hear you're still kicking, can see a few familiar faces besides yourself. Looks like a ripper day, and some tasty gear ! 5
Tony M Posted December 2, 2024 Author Posted December 2, 2024 Thanks Clive - very glad to be still kicking! Looking at the post I realized I'd added more photos than intended - some duplicated! Editing didn't seem to help, but I think I've got it sussed now. I really shouldn't be let loose with modern technology - it was all much easier in my day. 3 2
betty boop Posted December 2, 2024 Posted December 2, 2024 sounds like was a lovely day Tony, great to see the SA contingent in play enjoying this sort of thing. Good on you as host to put this on 3
frankn Posted December 22, 2024 Posted December 22, 2024 Tony & Rhonda’s hospitality is second to none , and, that space (jealous) and that system is so nice to spend time in/with. I look forward to going back on a quieter day. thank you. 3
Luc Posted December 23, 2024 Posted December 23, 2024 Sheds still looking great Tony, hopefully you got the wifi worked out from when Ant and I were there! *All the best for the festive season too to you and Rhonda. Cheers Lee. 1
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